Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

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  • #46
    Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

    Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
    If we agree that Alien is a great story, as well a great movie, and we agree that a great story must have both an overarching main theme and a protag who arcs, then try to find the theme by identifying Ripley's arc. According to the theory (is it a theory or a law? ) of unity, the two should be connected.
    Yes, agreed on all of the above Jon for the purposes of this scientific experiment, well, shall we be cautious and under a tacit and temporary agreement include this - "... that a great story must have both an overarching main theme and a protag with arc"

    What is it though?
    Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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    • #47
      Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

      Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
      I don't know for certain if this is correct, but I tend to think the theme of ALIEN is that mankind doesn't belong in space. The motifs are corporate greed, sacrifice, being alone and vulnerable, etc.

      I attempted to list a few ideas on this-

      working extremely quickly I came up with this scribbled note:-

      Curiosity killed the cat
      Pandora's box
      Scientifc arrogance
      man's place in the universe scaled down.

      --and was disappointed, puzzled even, so I decided Asjah8 to come back to it and try an analytical and slower approach when I next found a spare moment-
      Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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      • #48
        Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

        And Motherhood, and The Unknown, and Fear Of Sexual Penetration & Penii... all themes (motifs), not theses.

        I'm suspicious of this theme as a thesis thing ("women are stronger than alien monsters") -- I suspect it's always an afterthought, something that a writer rarely plans ahead.

        I think of theme mostly as symbolism & atmosphere, not a lesson for the plebs.

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        • #49
          Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

          Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post
          Yes, agreed on all of the above Jon for the purposes of this scientific experiment, well, shall we be cautious and under a tacit and temporary agreement include this - "... that a great story must have both an overarching main theme and a protag with arc"

          What is it though?
          Road Warrior, do you also agree that the protag's arc should be related to the
          overarching main theme? Unity of story and all that.

          Tell me what Ripley's character arc is in the story, then WE can figure out the main theme. What does Ripley "believe" at the beginning and what does she end up "believing" at the end.

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          • #50
            Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

            Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
            I don't know for certain if this is correct, but I tend to think the theme of ALIEN is that mankind doesn't belong in space. The motifs are corporate greed, sacrifice, being alone and vulnerable, etc.

            Yeah. A major clue may be the film's tagline about no one hearing you scream.

            I think it's similar to an underlying theme in Jurassic Park -- Man Can Not Play God and When He Attempts to Play God He's punished.

            The DNA thing is prevelant in both films -- DNA being the God Secret. We can analyze it but when we try to mess with it for our own selfish whims, all hell breaks loose.

            Only God can create new life forms -- this is not on our human job description.

            I always thought the Alien was a distant cousin to the dinosaur - or am I the only one who sees that connection?

            Anway I'm rambling now.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • #51
              Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

              Originally posted by goldmund View Post
              And Motherhood, and The Unknown, and Fear Of Sexual Penetration & Penii... all themes (motifs), not theses.

              I'm suspicious of this theme as a thesis thing ("women are stronger than alien monsters") -- I suspect it's always an afterthought, something that a writer rarely plans ahead.

              I think of theme mostly as symbolism & atmosphere, not a lesson for the plebs.
              Interesting. I had "The Unknown" on the list but left it off because I found it quite tricky and abstract, the unknown in Alien is. for me, linked in some way with a deep anthropological need to stick our noses into things. However, MOTHER sent them there.

              I don't think I like neat categories for these things, I get the impression you don't either, but you'll go along with it for the heck of it in a message board situation, even though it seems unnatural or even -- flawed reasoning.

              Even if somebody comes up with a persuasive and witty or erudite sounding answer, I suspect, I wont be convinced!

              But as we frequently say on here, "that's just me!".
              Last edited by The Road Warrior; 06-14-2012, 12:22 PM. Reason: one typo- a miracle.
              Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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              • #52
                Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                Originally posted by The Road Warrior View Post
                What does everybody think the big overarching theme of Alien is?
                Lift your style waaaay above the substance and people won't know the difference.

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                • #53
                  Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                  Originally posted by Biohazard View Post
                  Lift your style waaaay above the substance and people won't know the difference.
                  Like it.

                  (btw, I've yet to see DRIVE, but it looks very good).

                  but...
                  Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                    Originally posted by jonpiper View Post
                    Road Warrior, do you also agree that the protag's arc should be related to the
                    overarching main theme? Unity of story and all that.

                    Tell me what Ripley's character arc is in the story, then WE can figure out the main theme. What does Ripley "believe" at the beginning and what does she end up "believing" at the end.
                    Good idea Jon... I'll grab my jotting pad, and have a go--


                    (- for purpose of this exercise, I'll "embrace" the protag's arc/theme linkage, but I'm not sure Jon, it's probably a yes, but only tentatively today, right now- yes, other days, possibly not. And I can't say why... )
                    Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                      Apart from Alien being about big scary aliens, I always viewed it as a cautionary tale about big corporations. Big corporations don't give a **** about the individual.

                      Edit: I knew there was a discussion of Alien's theme before this thread. Here's what I said there:

                      The whole crew is put in that situation because of greed. Before the ship lands they already have 20 million tons of ore. The ship is a commercial towing vehicle. Ash is instructed to bring the Alien back, even if it costs lives.

                      How does the crew try to defeat the Alien? By destroying the (commercial) ship. The big scary monster on screen is the Alien. The big scary monster behind the scenes might be corporate irresponsibility
                      Last edited by NoirDigits; 06-14-2012, 12:46 PM.
                      Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                        Originally posted by NoirDigits View Post
                        Apart from Alien being about big scary aliens, I always viewed it as a cautionary tale about big corporations. Big corporations don't give a **** about the individual.

                        Edit: I knew there was a discussion of Alien's theme before this thread. Here's what I said there:

                        The whole crew is put in that situation because of greed. Before the ship lands they already have 20 million tons of ore. The ship is a commercial towing vehicle. Ash is instructed to bring the Alien back, even if it costs lives.

                        How does the crew try to defeat the Alien? By destroying the (commercial) ship. The big scary monster on screen is the Alien. The big scary monster behind the scenes might be corporate irresponsibility

                        - a corporatist satire.

                        The alien is just a convenient prop to stir up and set the central issues or conflicts in motion.
                        Forthcoming: The Annual, "I JUST GOT DUMPED" Valentine's Short Screenplay Writing Competition. Keep an eye on Writing Exercises.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                          If you show JURASSIC PARK to a bunch of kids then ask them, "What did you learn, children?" The kids would answer, "You shouldn't bring dinosaurs back from the dead because they will eat you."
                          Be careful what you wish for.
                          Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue

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                          • #58
                            Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                            ATB says, “I would say a great story does not have to have the protag’s flaw in direct opposition of theme.”

                            -- This would be a gamble that the thematic intention behind the story would sufficiently and plainly be conveyed.

                            A story could find itself with a long speech at the end, trying to incorporate thematic terrain that didn’t turn out to ease into place by itself.

                            The actions of the hero assists the goal of communicating the theme.

                            If the protagonist’s flaw isn’t in direct opposition of the theme, would this mean it agrees with the theme? This would be shallow and boring.

                            For example, let’s say the theme is “Passion For Life.” The hero starts the story being happy, loving, dancing in the streets and the story ends with him being happy, loving, dancing in the streets.

                            Would this resonate deeply with the audience?

                            Let’s say the theme is “Passion For Life.” What could be the opposite of that? Character Flaw: Unable to love. He has character traits of being cold and withdrawn.

                            With this character development it gives the writer an understanding on what’s driving the story where he doesn’t have to write by trial and error until it feels right. He’s able to make not random, but valid creative choices.

                            For example, he meets a warm woman full of life and he begins to thaw. By the end, with this woman’s help he changes.

                            These creative choices will connect deeply with the writer’s thematic intentions, thus making for a satisfying story for the audience.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                              Originally posted by christopher jon View Post
                              Be careful what you wish for.
                              More like 'don't mess with nature, or nature will mess with you'.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Is theme the opposite of a character's flaw?

                                "Dinosaurs are bitchin'."

                                I win.

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