"Hero must first refuse the call"

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

    Originally posted by Staircaseghost View Post

    He doesn't have his daughter's (or ex-wife's) affection! That is the central "thing that is wrong in the hero's life" and therefore the entire object of his journey.

    He shows up with a present at the party and she blows him off for -- what was it, a horse or something that that rich douchebag got her? He discovers that he can't buy her love with presents, and has to earn it through action. Beating up kidnappers just happens to be the path laid out before him.

    Put another way, if Liam stands by what I'm calling his refusal and doesn't let her go... she resents him for the rest of her life, and he never gets the chance to go on a quest to earn her love.
    Where's the refusal in all of that?

    Nothing is wrong, as in no one is asking him to fix anything or save anyone or change anything. How can you refuse something if no one asks or no one needs anything?

    Look at the second part of that quote. Nothing is being asked of him. In fact, the problem is no one needs anything from him.

    Until they do. His daughter needs his signature. He refuses that, but that not his "call to action" or whatever it's called.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

      Is there such a thing as the refusal of the refusal? Because that would be crazy awesome.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

        Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
        Craig would you say Frodo refuses the call? I'm just curious to get your perspective, plus Lord of The Rings is my favorite movie
        Without question.

        When Gandalf first explains the true nature of the Ring to Frodo, Frodo immediately begs Gandalf to take it back. Only after Gandalf explains why he cannot does Frodo agree to handle things from there.

        Similarly, at the Council of Elrond, Frodo has no intention of being the ring bearer. Only when he sees what the ring is doing to everyone else does he finally volunteer for the task.

        You can see how Jackson shot the scene to emphasize Frodo's thought process.

        I can't do this.
        I don't want to do this.
        I have to do this.
        I'm doing this.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

          Originally posted by Craig Mazin View Post
          Without question.

          When Gandalf first explains the true nature of the Ring to Frodo, Frodo immediately begs Gandalf to take it back. Only after Gandalf explains why he cannot does Frodo agree to handle things from there.

          Similarly, at the Council of Elrond, Frodo has no intention of being the ring bearer. Only when he sees what the ring is doing to everyone else does he finally volunteer for the task.

          You can see how Jackson shot the scene to emphasize Frodo's thought process.

          I can't do this.
          I don't want to do this.
          I have to do this.
          I'm doing this.
          Ok. You and Patrick Sweeney make good points I never caught. Thx. Something for me to remember in my own writing.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

            In fact, if you think about it, Frodo might seem resolute in individual scenes in Fellowship of the Ring, but he's actually frantic to get rid of the ring through pretty much the entire film. He offers it to Gandalf, then to the safekeeping of the elves in Rivendell, and finally to Galadriel. It's not until the very end of the film that he accepts it's either him or nobody. Without that first (and second, and third) attempt to refuse the call, he wouldn't arc at all - he'd just be exactly the same courageous hobbit all the way through. And we'd never have seen just how much the ring terrifies him, or recognize its true power and threat.
            Patrick Sweeney

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

              Very good point about Frodo's arc.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                Originally posted by Patrick Sweeney View Post
                In fact, if you think about it, Frodo might seem resolute in individual scenes in Fellowship of the Ring, but he's actually frantic to get rid of the ring through pretty much the entire film. He offers it to Gandalf, then to the safekeeping of the elves in Rivendell, and finally to Galadriel. It's not until the very end of the film that he accepts it's either him or nobody. Without that first (and second, and third) attempt to refuse the call, he wouldn't arc at all - he'd just be exactly the same courageous hobbit all the way through. And we'd never have seen just how much the ring terrifies him, or recognize its true power and threat.
                Actually, at the very end, he can't give the ring up. So, left to his own devices, the ring would not have been destroyed and the quest would have failed. Not sure how this fits in the paradigms, but it made a hell of a story.
                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                  Originally posted by Centos View Post
                  Actually, at the very end, he can't give the ring up. So, left to his own devices, the ring would not have been destroyed and the quest would have failed. Not sure how this fits in the paradigms, but it made a hell of a story.
                  Right, at the end of the third movie. I'm referring to the first movie, Fellowship of the Ring. You're correct, Frodo continues to evolve through the later movies, especially as the ring works its evil will on him: In The Two Towers, he's determined to hang onto the ring to see his quest through, and by Return of the King he can't bear to give it up even to complete his quest. The movies (and books, of course) are some of my all-time favorites, so definitely a hell of a story.
                  Patrick Sweeney

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                    Originally posted by SuperScribe View Post
                    Is there such a thing as the refusal of the refusal? Because that would be crazy awesome.
                    Actually that was sort of the point I was trying to make. Sometimes watching a film I can almost hear the studio execs insisting on putting a scene in that didn't need to be there, just for good measure. So the writer might try to refuse the refusal, or other convention, but it's a no go.

                    On a similar note, wasn't it Monohan who went on that rant about execs wanting characters to change when sometimes the story is not about a character changing?

                    Some of the conventions you see in romcoms all the time drives me nuts. The lovers get along and then some failure or deception is discovered, and one person tries to explain and the other will have none of it and walks away hurt and angered. It feels so obligatory, and I like it when writers have the confidence to do something new. Sometimes it's rewarding for the viewers to see their expectations met, sometimes it's boring and overly predictable.

                    If I hear one more character say "your other left" or "let me guess, he's standing right behind me" (after bitching about the person to others standing there), well I might just have a hissy fit. There are a lot of words out there to use in ways we haven't already heard a million times.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                      just got to find a creative way to play the beat, but in a new way...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                        Staircaseghost says, "He doesn't have his daughter's (or ex-wife's) affection! That is the central 'thing that is wrong in the hero's life' and therefore the entire object of his journey."

                        -- The family relationship storyline is a sub-plot.

                        The II happens when his daughter is taken. This causes the Major Dramtic Question and hooks the reader/audience: Will he be able to save her? This is what keeps the reader/audience entralled in the story. Anxiously waiting for the climax to see how this question is answered.

                        Using Campbell's terminolgy, the Call to Adventure, which is the first major plot point that upsets the hero's status quo, was his daughter being taken and like a good, strong father -- who has the training, experience and connections to save her -- he went on that quest without hesitation.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                          I'm surprised no one here noted Howard Prince, Woody Allen's role in "The Front".

                          http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074554

                          In his case, he's a reluctant, "traditional" hero when his old school chum, a blacklisted TV writer, wants him to "front" his scripts to a TV show. People around Prince are panic-striken, due to McCarthyism (horrible moment in American history), but he doesn't care since he's making real money, getting accolades and having a romance with the show's story editor. He's on easy street!

                          However (spoilers), a blacklisted acquaintance, comic Hecky Brown (Zero Mostel, who was blacklisted himself) commits suicide, forcing Prince to "wake up" and be a real hero in the third act.
                          Last edited by Madbandit; 06-20-2012, 06:24 AM.
                          "A screenwriter is much like being a fire hydrant with a bunch of dogs lined up around it.- -Frank Miller

                          "A real writer doesn't just want to write; a real writer has to write." -Alan Moore

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                            Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                            Staircaseghost says, "He doesn't have his daughter's (or ex-wife's) affection! That is the central 'thing that is wrong in the hero's life' and therefore the entire object of his journey."

                            -- The family relationship storyline is a sub-plot.

                            The II happens when his daughter is taken. This causes the Major Dramtic Question and hooks the reader/audience: Will he be able to save her? This is what keeps the reader/audience entralled in the story. Anxiously waiting for the climax to see how this question is answered.

                            Using Campbell's terminolgy, the Call to Adventure, which is the first major plot point that upsets the hero's status quo, was his daughter being taken and like a good, strong father -- who has the training, experience and connections to save her -- he went on that quest without hesitation.
                            Unless I miss my guess - the CDQ is whether or not he will connect with his daughter. Her being "taken" provides him the journey - she's metaphorically and physically separated from him. The signing of the papers is his call and his refusal is when he turns away from signing them.
                            life happens
                            despite a few cracked pots-
                            and random sunlight

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                              Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                              Unless I miss my guess - the CDQ is whether or not he will connect with his daughter. Her being "taken" provides him the journey - she's metaphorically and physically separated from him.
                              That's my take on it. The external plot is Neeson running around kicking people's faces in, but his internal journey's to become a real father who puts his daughter's well-being first.

                              Originally posted by asjah8 View Post
                              The signing of the papers is his call and his refusal is when he turns away from signing them.
                              I think this is backwards. His failure is that he ignores his own better judgment to win a popularity contest with his daughter. The call was to be a real father, not a buddy, and do what's in her best interests rather than what will make her happy.

                              The script even underlines this with the two following beats - having failed to do the right thing for his daughter's safety, Neeson imposes a bunch of silly rules on her as a half-measure that won't protect her at all (and he knows it). And then at the airport, when he discovers she's lied to him about the whole basis for the trip, he still does nothing because he's so desperate to make her happy rather than to do what's best for her.

                              So he fails the test, refuses that call, and then things get worse - she gets kidnapped, and now he has to go kick in faces to save her, aka, become a real father who puts his daughter's well-being first.
                              Patrick Sweeney

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: "Hero must first refuse the call"

                                Spinning off the specific topic of whether Neeson refuses the call by signing or not signing the papers for the trip - can refusing the call ever be the right decision?

                                In most of the examples I can think of, it might be the smart decision, the rational decision, the human decision - most people aren't James Bond or Indiana Jones - but I can't think of a film off the top of my head where refusing the initial call didn't just make everything a lot worse, to the point where the protag's dragged (often kicking and screaming) into action at the break into Act 2.

                                I see refusing the call as one of a series of falling dominos. First you have the catalyst: A shark is eating people. Then the hero refuses that initial call to action: Brody agrees to keep the beaches open to protect his comfy new job. Then things get worse: More people get eaten. And now the hero has a problem he can no longer ignore and a call he can't refuse: Get that shark.

                                (Although it's only the first half of Act 2, so he's going to keep coming up with ways to not commit completely - Brody tries at first to fight the shark from the land, with spotters and shark towers and whatever, because he'd rather do almost anything than go after it on the water).
                                Patrick Sweeney

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X