Is 'theme' really everything?

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  • #31
    Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

    Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
    ] Yeah, yeah, Manhattan and Annie Hall aren't in my top five. Suck it.
    Wow. I am currently sucking it. It's weird, really. I don't think I've ever sucked it before.

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    • #32
      Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

      Very few people I know walk out of a movie theater talking about the theme. I think it's absolutely integral to creating art because it helps to define the artist's POV within a subject, but for me, whenever I set out to write about a theme, that's all I end up writing.

      And I'm totally with Jeff. Theme stated in the form of a question can often end up with much more interesting results than a theme stated as fact or nebulous concept.

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      • #33
        Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

        Originally posted by F.Scott.Frazier View Post
        And I'm totally with Jeff. Theme stated in the form of a question can often end up with much more interesting results than a theme stated as fact or nebulous concept.
        Great point. I reckon it's a lot more engaging to have an audience have to decide what they think, rather than having you tell them purely what you think.

        A lot of great food for thought in this thread.
        Ring-a-ding-ding, baby.

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        • #34
          Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

          Originally posted by F.Scott.Frazier View Post
          Very few people I know walk out of a movie theater talking about the theme. I think it's absolutely integral to creating art because it helps to define the artist's POV within a subject, but for me, whenever I set out to write about a theme, that's all I end up writing.

          And I'm totally with Jeff. Theme stated in the form of a question can often end up with much more interesting results than a theme stated as fact or nebulous concept.
          At the risk of making the discussion too academic or ethereal, there might be some confusion between theme and premise. Theme is the central concept around which the story turns - it can be one word, or a phrase, e.g. justice, or crime doesn't pay, ambition, failure, etc. How theme is expressed in a story provides the premise, which can often be stated in the form of a question. For example, the theme of a movie might be parental devotion, but that theme is expressed in the story premise "what happens if a mother has to sell her child to another family to give him a better life?"

          Like most things in this business it isn't absolute - theme and premise can be similar and overlap. What is certain, though, is that a powerful theme makes a story more emotionally meaningful for an audience and even though movie-goers may leave a theater talking about how great the story was with no reference to theme, it's the theme and how well it was expressed through the premise that made the movie a greater experience.

          Whether or not a writer starts a script with a specific theme or whether they discover it in the process of writing a good story probably doesn't matter, but there usually comes a point in the creative process where it's useful for the writer to clearly understand the theme so the story is focused not just around plot but also around a meaningful idea.

          And BTW I'm not going to suck Harold's top five thing. I'm just not.
          "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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          • #35
            Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

            Originally posted by DavidK View Post
            Whether or not a writer starts a script with a specific theme or whether they discover it in the process of writing a good story probably doesn't matter, but there usually comes a point in the creative process where it's useful for the writer to clearly understand the theme so the story is focused not just around plot but also around a meaningful idea.
            Yes. There was a great discussion here years ago on theme with pro writer Will Wheeler (Taotropics) where this exact point was made. He, as Jeff Lowell says, recommended phrasing theme as a question, much like a debate, and exploring it through plot and character.

            Once this is done, it helps drive everything -- characters' choices, dialogue, settings, visual effects.

            I'm of the opinion every writer is inspired by something they want to say -- even unconsciously -- which drives them to sweat through 100+ pages. Some question about life they grapple with which springs from their own experience, traumas, hopes, fears, etc. Even if they've managed to supress these thoughts they're still rumbling around deep inside.

            If one's theme remains unconscious that's fine -- but you may never come close to answering the thematic question for yourself or your audience. However, once you become aware of your theme (which is likely very personal to you), it opens more doors of opportunity in terms of story.

            Ideas like "Crime doesn't pay" or "Love conquers all" are not themes -- they're (IMO) hackneyed truisms (likely rooted in religion) which often don't hold water at all. We know crime pays for a lot of people. We know many people have gotten away with murder. And we know love does not conquer all.

            For me, as a movie lover, the best films, the films that resonate with me, make me think about things, long after I've watched them, are those which explore and debate the most intriguing themes.
            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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            • #36
              Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

              I like "Your Friends and Neighbors."

              The theme of that movie is fvcking.

              It's stated in the opening. It unifies several storylines.

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              • #37
                Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                Originally posted by jcgary View Post
                Wow. I am currently sucking it. It's weird, really. I don't think I've ever sucked it before.
                Trust me, it's an acquired taste.

                HH (who thinks most of Allen's films are head and shoulders above everyone else's...except for Shadows and Fog. I don't care what anyone says, I want my money back on that one. It wasn't good, and I didn't get laid that night. Mostly, though, it's 'cause I didn't get laid that night.)

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                • #38
                  Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                  Originally posted by fanatic_about_film View Post
                  Hey everyone, some interesting insight into 'theme' here. I'd love to hear more opinions.

                  What's the point of writing a story, if you don't have a theme?

                  Well write stories because they jump into my imagination, and then out onto the page. I simply want to write something interesting and exciting, but I don't consciously think of the 'theme' of it.

                  My most recent script is a contained thriller. I wrote it because I wanted to test myself and write a script set in one location. I was interested in seeing how this female character (a daddy's princess) coped when put into a serious and violent situation. I found that interesting. But never once did I ask myself what the 'theme' of this script was.
                  Well, when you write, you're creating something that means something, whether it's an epic or some teen sex comedy.
                  "A screenwriter is much like being a fire hydrant with a bunch of dogs lined up around it.- -Frank Miller

                  "A real writer doesn't just want to write; a real writer has to write." -Alan Moore

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                  • #39
                    Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                    Absolutely right, Mad. But I think the point the people in the theme camp are trying to get across is that if you don't know what you mean, then your story isn't going to express it as effectively as it might otherwise.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      But if it's a question that can be argued on both sides, then it informs character, story, etc. The example I've used before is "Crimes and Misdemeanors," where the theme is "do God's eyes watch us?" It's an interesting question - is there a god that judges us, or are we alone in the universe? On one side, there's a character who's terrified that there is no god, because it renders life meaningless (Allen's character). On the other side, there's a character who's thrilled to discover that there is no god, because it means that he can get away with evil without consequence (Landau's character).

                      Beyond that, look at how the theme informs so much. There's a rabbi who is going blind, and Landau is the eye doctor who is treating him. The whole plot of getting away with murder, the subplot of the philosopher who kills himself... all of it grows out of the theme.

                      (And to get really wonky, there are a ton of visuals of eyes put in through the movie - headlights blinking out, the dead girlfriend's eyes starting up at her killer, etc. The theme informs everything in this movie.)
                      This!!!

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                      • #41
                        Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                        Theme is really just the smart guys' way of writing...

                        you want the Audience to continue to ask the same question over and over again and answer them with plot points and character motivation.

                        Momento: what's the truth? Every line of dialogue, action, scene revolves around this question...

                        "OK, so what am I doing? Oh, I'm chasing this guy. (Dodd Shoots) No... he's chasing me"

                        --a detective that can't remember 15 minutes into the past and his last memory is that of the case he's attempting to solve.

                        more disorienting of the audience by reversing the order of the scenes; so we are asking ourselves, "what is the truth?"

                        Character, Structure, Action, Dialogue are/our thematic elements.
                        But this wily god never discloses even to the skillful questioner the whole content of his wisdom.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                          I guess Momento was the Spanish version of Memento?

                          HH

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                          • #43
                            Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                            Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
                            I guess Momento was the Spanish version of Memento?
                            Yes, just as Innuendo was the Italian version of Deliverance.
                            "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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                            • #44
                              Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                              Yes.
                              Free Script Tips:
                              http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                              • #45
                                Re: Is 'theme' really everything?

                                Originally posted by haroldhecuba View Post
                                I guess Momento was the Spanish version of Memento?
                                Originally posted by DavidK View Post
                                Yes, just as Innuendo was the Italian version of Deliverance.
                                Not since Bob & Ray.

                                (Really, that is funny... As in -- I'm glad I wasn't drinking my morning coffee.)

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