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  • #61
    Re: Pimp

    Originally posted by NikeeGoddess View Post
    midnight cowboy is the way to go.

    i don't think they're physically brutal like you suggest. but they do have a different name: madam
    and when your clients are rich politicians who pay $5000/night then one would say, she did right by her harvard education.
    Actually, the article I can't find distingusihes them from madams. They're very butch, parodies of male pimps.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Pimp

      Originally posted by SBScript View Post
      Oh, and by the way, Hustle and Flow was not representative of the pimp prostitute relationship, they played it like they were a mildly dysfunctional family. I laughed when I saw that movie. The whole bit where it's a big deal that his prostitute gave the store owner a blow job for a microphone the dude wanted? And they played that like she had a CHOICE? Give me a break.
      You can take whatever moral stance you want in shaping your own career, SB. Are others wrong if they don't allow moral underpinnings to shape their career choices?
      "I hate to break it to you but there is no big lie. There is no system. The universe is indifferent.- - Don Draper

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Pimp

        I was playing with juxtaposing Iceberg's actual interview dialogue with a scene starring his wire hanger thingy.

        INT. DARKENED BEDROOM - NIGHT

        Doused in her own blood and naked, a woman scurries on all fours into the corner of the room and cowers there.

        A weak-circle of light cast by the bedside lamp surrounds her. She has no name because she’s a pimp’s ho. A means to an end. An article of commerce.

        WOMAN
        No more - I swear I’ll never --

        The cruel whip comes down on her legs. Fresh red blood oozes onto nearly-dry cuts suffered earlier.

        We see the weapon is particularly innovative -- wire hangers twisted together into a four-foot-long attitude adjuster.

        ICEBERG (V.O.)
        What I was saying was that the pimp
        overtly and almost without inhibition,
        denigrates and despoils the sexual object.

        WOMAN
        Please ...

        Again - it rips across her face, slitting her eyelid. Shock sets in, she doesn’t even bother to protect --

        Again - now her cheek is cut in a line ending at her jaw.

        Our narrator leans in - ICEBERG SLIM (30s), the ultimate pimp. He checks his handiwork. Caresses her blood-drenched hair. Lovingly.

        ICEBERG (V.O.)
        The kiss-kick ritual is at the very root
        of the pimp's sexuality.

        She leans into him -- like a dog looking for a pat on the head.

        ICEBERG
        Don’t make me do this to you again.

        She actually half smiles.

        WOMAN
        No Daddy.

        ICEBERG (V.O.)
        My theory is that some quantum
        of pimp in every man would perhaps
        enhance his approach to women ...

        And as he helps her to her feet, guiding her on her slow torturous walk out of the room ...

        ICEBERG (V.O.)
        Women are prone to masochism,
        anyway. I think if you are able to
        manufacture a bit of "heelism" in
        your nature and give them a sense
        of insecurity -- then you are a
        treasured jewel.

        At the door, he kisses the only spot on her face clear of blood.

        FADE OUT.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Pimp

          Originally posted by joe9alt View Post
          I don't get it.

          Producers (like you) FLOCK toward unredeemed characters ALL THE TIME, SB.

          You people crack me up.

          You get up on your soapbox regarding products of racial oppression in urban America (pimping in the book is traced back to slavery times when black men noticed their white masters interest in black women) and yet you seek the next torture porn or serial killer script like a cranky baby looking for a pacifier.

          Did the writer of SILENCE OF THE LAMBS say to himself "I'm against serial killers- when considering to adapt the Harris book?

          What we have here is the potential for a complex character and a complex story.

          We can make movies like BLOW and SCARFACE and HUSTLE & FLOW and its okay yet we're up in arms about this because why?

          As a writer your job is not to get on a moral high horse. Your job is to tell a story. If you can't do the job...well, I can. So step aside if you want.

          I'm going to paste a snippet from an interview with Slim below. If it doesn't get your juices flowing in terms of the potential for a complex character than I don't know what will. If transforming yourself from an incarcerated pimp to a man TRYING to be a dedicated husband and father (of daughters) isn't a redemptive journey, I don't know what is.

          Q: As a rule, pimps find it practical to be distant in their relations with women. In fact, you trade name derives from your icy nature. Have you been able to warm up to your wife and children?
          A: Yes, but with my wife there's a difference. She's been with me for more than 11 years. Do you understand how horrible it would be for Iceberg Slim to be with a woman who wasn't with him from the beginning- when Iceberg Slim was fresh out of prison. This woman was with me when I ain't had two red quarters to put together.
          Now my ambition is to be as good as a father as I was a pimp. But at first I couldn't express love for my daughters because they were female. I can do it now. But you know what pulled my coat . You know how balmy the weather is in L.A. , right. There're scores of fathers- black and white- with the supermarket syndrome. They ride their kids in carts. And you see fathers in California doing the shopping and all. When I first saw it, man- these fathers kissing their children, fondling them- I just looked and said to myself, 'That nigger is a shonuff father.' I know I wasn't so sick that I couldn't realize that eh knew what to do, or that he wasn't flawed.
          Yes.

          We love stories about bad men. Hannibal. Don Corleone. Idi Amin. Richard the Third. Kurtz.

          Clearly this belongs on premium cable, next to The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and Dexter.

          In depth exploration over the course of multiple episodes. The pimps, the prostitutes, the johns, including the politicians and priests, the cops who sometimes take freebies, all of it.

          Just about everything Iceberg says in these quoted passages is true. That's probably why some people find him so offensive.

          What's most interesting to me about pimps is that they must give up their own humanity in order to play the role. In order to command the fear and respect of their women, they have to become cartoon versions of masculinity. Unfeeling, superdominant, ultraconfident sex machines who dress like peacocks and never show fear.

          This is what their women want. If the pimp doesn't play the role, his women will leave him for someone who does. A pimp has to give up all possibility of being loved - because this requires showing vulnerability - in lieu of being feared, of always being in control. If a pimp could get his women to give him money by acting like Mr Rogers, then he'd act like Mr Rogers.

          Like the rappers say, pimpin ain't easy. You see very few old pimps because the game is generally too hard for anybody but young ruthless guys.

          Here's a radical notion: the whore makes the pimp, not the other way around.

          The woman-as-victim dogma infantilizes and objectifies women by denying them agency. They make their own choices for their own reasons. Nobody in their right mind would call them good choices, but then again, there's a hell of a lot of power in controlling men through sex.
          If you really like it you can have the rights
          It could make a million for you overnight

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Pimp


            "Here's a radical notion: the whore makes the pimp, not the other way around."


            That's probably why you see so many movies where whores are auditioning pimps and calling all the shots.

            Look, fortunately I am not an expert on these matters, but while I can buy that a woman in a controlled environment such as a strip club can totally take advantage of her sex appeal to suck out money from salivating fools, and therefore be actually considered the one controlling the situation, a hooker on a street corner opens herself up to all types of violence and abuse and has to answer to someone who is equally violent and abusive.

            So yeah, nice try.
            Last edited by Rantanplan; 08-20-2009, 10:18 PM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Pimp

              Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post

              "Here's a radical notion: the whore makes the pimp, not the other way around."


              That's probably why you see so many movies where whores are auditioning pimps and calling all the shots.

              Look, fortunately I am not an expert on these matters, but while I can buy that a woman in a controlled environment such as a strip club can totally take advantage of her sex appeal to suck out money from salivating fools, and therefore be actually considered the one controlling the situation, a hooker on a street corner opens herself up to all types of violence and abuse and has to answer to someone who is equally violent and abusive.

              So yeah, nice try.
              No.

              The power she has over the johns is part of the appeal. It's part of what draws her out there and keeps her coming back. The power is another drug, like the drugs so many of them are addicted to.

              She's a victim too. Her life is in danger from the johns. Though that danger can also be part of the thrill.

              Some hookers, even street hookers, work without pimps.

              Those that have pimps choose their pimps. If they're not getting what they want - and they want a monster - they walk.

              It's more complicated than just women are victims, men are victimizers. The complexity is what makes it interesting.
              If you really like it you can have the rights
              It could make a million for you overnight

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Pimp

                Originally posted by odocoileus View Post
                No.

                It's more complicated than just women are victims, men are victimizers. The complexity is what makes it interesting.
                So are you saying that the same psychology that applies to life-threatening occupations that provide certain kinds of adrenaline (army, firefighters, cops, spies, extreme sports, anything super physical etc) applies to the hooker on the street corner? The thrill of danger?

                I can imagine how a life of crime so to speak is filled with those thrills, the mob films make that clear, but in those cases it also comes with the power. The hooker on the street corner, on the ohter hand, doesn't have that much power... she doesn't call the shots, either with her john or her pimp. Any power she thinks she may have is a delusion. She probably can't even make the guy wear a condom.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Pimp

                  Originally posted by odocoileus View Post
                  Yes.

                  We love stories about bad men. Hannibal. Don Corleone. Idi Amin. Richard the Third. Kurtz.

                  Clearly this belongs on premium cable, next to The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and Dexter.

                  In depth exploration over the course of multiple episodes. The pimps, the prostitutes, the johns, including the politicians and priests, the cops who sometimes take freebies, all of it.

                  Just about everything Iceberg says in these quoted passages is true. That's probably why some people find him so offensive.

                  What's most interesting to me about pimps is that they must give up their own humanity in order to play the role. In order to command the fear and respect of their women, they have to become cartoon versions of masculinity. Unfeeling, superdominant, ultraconfident sex machines who dress like peacocks and never show fear.

                  This is what their women want. If the pimp doesn't play the role, his women will leave him for someone who does. A pimp has to give up all possibility of being loved - because this requires showing vulnerability - in lieu of being feared, of always being in control. If a pimp could get his women to give him money by acting like Mr Rogers, then he'd act like Mr Rogers.

                  Like the rappers say, pimpin ain't easy. You see very few old pimps because the game is generally too hard for anybody but young ruthless guys.

                  Here's a radical notion: the whore makes the pimp, not the other way around.

                  The woman-as-victim dogma infantilizes and objectifies women by denying them agency. They make their own choices for their own reasons. Nobody in their right mind would call them good choices, but then again, there's a hell of a lot of power in controlling men through sex.
                  Interesting post.

                  But you have to admit pimps are ****ing bottom-feeders that feast on desperation in most cases. Drug addiction. Single mothers. Unskilled ill-equipped people with shattered esteem and tons of baggage.

                  Any abuse of power through exploitation of a weakness is abhorrent in my opinion. Whether it is a parent, a politician, a pope, a charlatan, what have you...

                  (feel free to get Freudian with that one sc111, I'm just making a statement about freedom

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Pimp

                    Unreliable narrator. Yesss, lips! There will be hoes!

                    EXT. SIDEWALK CORNER - DAY

                    Tanya hands Iceberg a small wad of cash, braces herself. Sure enough his face twists and his hand comes up.

                    ICEBERG (V.O.)
                    Women are prone to masochism, anyway.

                    Tanya backs up, falls on her ass, keeps backing up.

                    TANYA
                    (really fast)
                    Wait, daddy, wait. I squeezed two po johns in one slot. Didn't take any more time. Same dough. Same dough.

                    YOUNGER ICEBERG
                    I should kick you to the curb.

                    ICEBERG (V.O.)
                    I think if you are able to manufacture a bit of "heelism" in your nature and give them a sense of insecurity as to whether some voluptuous rival might come along and steal you...

                    Iceberg smiles. Tanya smiles.

                    ICEBERG (V.O.)
                    ...then you are a treasured jewel.

                    He reaches with one hand to help her up-

                    YOUNGER ICEBERG
                    But,what you did was smart.

                    -backhands her face with the other.

                    YOUNGER ICEBERG
                    Just not one hundred percent smart.

                    ICEBERG (V.O.)
                    And a superior intellect.

                    INT. CORNER OFFICE - DAY

                    Fancy, opulent, the desk placard says DIR OF SALES, TANYA JONES. We see only her hands patting the desktop. The interviewer sits across from her, stoic as always. He stops the recording. For a moment, it sounds like she can't breathe, but it's from laughing, hard.

                    TANYA
                    He was a dumb-ass motherfvcker. I held out on him every day. That's why the ladies came to him - he was a dumb-ass motherfvcker.

                    The laugh finally fades. She sighs.

                    TANYA
                    Had a weak backhand, too.
                    Last edited by sarajb; 08-21-2009, 06:45 AM.
                    Standing on a hill in my mountain of dreams telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Pimp

                      Originally posted by sarajb View Post
                      Unreliable narrator. Yesss, lips! There will be hoes!

                      EXT. SIDEWALK CORNER - DAY

                      Tanya hands Iceberg a small wad of cash, braces herself. Sure enough his face twists and his hand comes up.

                      ICEBERG (V.O.)
                      Women are prone to masochism, anyway.

                      Tanya backs up, falls on her ass, keeps backing up.

                      TANYA
                      (really fast)
                      Wait, daddy, wait. I squeezed two po johns in one slot. Didn't take any more time. Same dough. Same dough.

                      YOUNGER ICEBERG
                      I should kick you to the curb.

                      ICEBERG (V.O.)
                      I think if you are able to manufacture a bit of "heelism" in your nature and give them a sense of insecurity as to whether some voluptuous rival might come along and steal you...

                      Iceberg smiles. Tanya smiles.

                      ICEBERG (V.O.)
                      ...then you are a treasured jewel.

                      He reaches with one hand to help her up-

                      YOUNGER ICEBERG
                      What you did was smart.

                      -backhands her face with the other.

                      YOUNGER ICEBERG
                      But not one hundred percent smart.

                      ICEBERG (V.O.)
                      And a superior intellect.

                      INT. CORNER OFFICE - DAY

                      Fancy, opulent, the desk placard says DIR OF SALES, TANYA JONES. We see only her hands patting the desktop. The interviewer sits across from her, stoic as always. He stops the recording. For a moment, it sounds like she can't breathe, but it's from laughing, hard.

                      TANYA
                      He was a dumb-ass motherfvcker. I held out on him every day. That's why the ladies came to him - he was a dumb-ass motherfvcker.

                      The laugh finally fades. She sighs.

                      TANYA
                      Had a weak backhand, too.
                      Brown-Balled by the Hollywood Clika

                      Latino Heart Project's MEXICAN HEART...ATTACK!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Pimp

                        Originally posted by joe9alt View Post
                        You can take whatever moral stance you want in shaping your own career, SB. Are others wrong if they don't allow moral underpinnings to shape their career choices?
                        I'll get back to you on this after I find my pacifier.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Pimp

                          Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                          Interesting post.

                          But you have to admit pimps are ****ing bottom-feeders that feast on desperation in most cases. Drug addiction. Single mothers. Unskilled ill-equipped people with shattered esteem and tons of baggage.

                          Any abuse of power through exploitation of a weakness is abhorrent in my opinion. Whether it is a parent, a politician, a pope, a charlatan, what have you...

                          (feel free to get Freudian with that one sc111, I'm just making a statement about freedom
                          And don't forge that the ideal girl for a pimp looking to turn someone out is young...16 or 17, little more than a child. But I guess that 16 year old runaway is "looking for a monster" and "controlling johns through sex".

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Pimp

                            Originally posted by ihavebiglips View Post
                            Interesting post.

                            But you have to admit pimps are ****ing bottom-feeders that feast on desperation in most cases. Drug addiction. Single mothers. Unskilled ill-equipped people with shattered esteem and tons of baggage.

                            Any abuse of power through exploitation of a weakness is abhorrent in my opinion. Whether it is a parent, a politician, a pope, a charlatan, what have you...

                            (feel free to get Freudian with that one sc111, I'm just making a statement about freedom
                            I agree.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Pimp

                              Originally posted by odocoileus View Post
                              No.

                              The power she has over the johns is part of the appeal. It's part of what draws her out there and keeps her coming back. The power is another drug, like the drugs so many of them are addicted to.

                              She's a victim too. Her life is in danger from the johns. Though that danger can also be part of the thrill.

                              Some hookers, even street hookers, work without pimps.

                              Those that have pimps choose their pimps. If they're not getting what they want - and they want a monster - they walk.

                              It's more complicated than just women are victims, men are victimizers. The complexity is what makes it interesting.
                              How many prostitutes have you interviewed?
                              Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Pimp

                                and don't forget the uglier (if that's possible) side of prostitution: the sex slave trade. I don't know how realistically it was portrayed in movies like Eastern Promises and Taken, but if it's even half as bad as that...

                                Comment

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