Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

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  • #46
    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

    Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
    Cause there's nothing better than a nice slow paced movie right?
    I missed this in my last response (the skimming thing, I guess). Which makes your apparent "understanding" of pacing even odder.

    You said: "Pacing needs to be succinct and have no waste, that's why it is fast." Which seems to imply that all pacing is fast.

    But when you use the term "slow paced movie", it would seem you're contradicting yourself again. It's kind of puzzling. So "clearly" we're supposed to hate slow paced movies, if they exist?

    And to answer your question: I like good movies. Good movies include both fast paced and slow paced.

    You really have to break away from absolutism if you're going to learn anything about screenwriting.
    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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    • #47
      Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

      Google Search pacing. That's hysterical. I've read many different definitions of pacing, and from them I've derived my own.

      You did everything in your post but answer my challenge. You can take your understanding of pacing and I'll take mine and we'll give notes on a script. I think you know your way around the space station better than you do a screenplay, you think the same of me. Do you want to see who is right? I'm guessing no, cause if you were so sure that I'm bs then you'd jump at the chance to embarrass me, but you want no part of the challenge. So...

      Screenplays move fast. That's not my original thought. I've read it by industry professionals and other writers. You ever type 'interviews with screenwriters' into YouTube? I recommend you do. Even the perverbial 'slow down scenes' have layers and other elements like important backstory, reveals, etc. it doesn't mean the story is not tight. Like you said, you are skimming the posts. I don't know, but maybe that's part of the problem.

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      • #48
        Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

        can someone please point me to a book where the book says here are the rules of screenwriting and if you follow them you will have a great script. None of the books I read said that at all.

        So you agree Joe, that the clock is ticking for the writer to set-up the story. The genera rule of thumb is 25% of the script. You say, well, it can be 20% or 35%. I agree if the story calls for it.

        People get so charged up when these general principles of structure get brought up. I've read too many scripts that go on and on and on about nothing. That if this writer sat down, and thought about where their story needs to be at the 25% point, 50% point, and so on. The script would have much better pacing. But these days, people believe being ignorant of these principles is cool and artistic.

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        • #49
          Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
          Jeff, say what you will about Ghost Story. But any movie with bankable actors will make 2 million. The film was made for. 100k only cause they didn't give Affleck his quote and they didn't give Mara hers. If those actors received their regular fees, the movie loses millions of dollars. I'll bet their fees combined would be 25 million or more. So now, of Ghost Story cost 25.1 million to make and made 2 million, would it still be a success?
          There's a surprisingly large amount of misinformation crammed into one paragraph.

          First off, if Affleck and Mara got their full quotes, I think 25 million is off by about, oh, 21 million.

          Yes, they deferred their salaries. They did it because they read the script and they believed in it so much that they deferred their salaries. Actors do small movies for scale because they love a project, think it has a chance of getting them acclaim, or helping establish their credentials for different genres.

          Here's an example: Ryan Gosling made "The Notebook." People were throwing roles and money at him. He chose "Half Nelson," made a thousand bucks a week - but got an Oscar nomination.

          That script you've been making fun of because it didn't have a pinch point 50% of the way through got two established actors to give up time and other roles, and they were right. The movie is a critical darling. It will help their careers. It will help the writer/director's career. It will make money for the company who made it, and the company that bought and distributed it.

          Also, they didn't make that movie for 100k because of the actor salaries. Of course that was a part of it, but 100k is NOTHING. My budget when I exec produce a TV series is around 2 million an episode, which films over five days. If I write "EXT. CITY STREET" instead of shooting a scene on a soundstage, I just cost myself an extra fifty thousand dollars.

          Making a movie for 100k means that the writer thought of and executed a contained idea where he could keep his production costs at basically nothing. AND he got those actors. AND he got distribution.

          Instead of looking at that as an amazing success story, and something all of us should aspire to... you say it's "God awful," that it "had no big moment. No big turns," and say that it's "missing all the structural elements you see in studio films."

          I'm not saying you have to love the movie. I'm saying that dismissing it because it doesn't fit your paradigm, and not being able to see that there are OTHER paradigms, shows a shortcoming.

          I don't have time to have a "review off" of a feature, but I'll tell you what - apparently you read TV pilots as well. I'll take the challenge with a TV pilot, if that meets your criteria. (Preferably a half hour, because I really don't have a lot of time to waste, but if it has to be an hour script, so be it.)

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          • #50
            Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

            Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
            But I'll offer you Story the same challenge as I offered Jeff, which he declined. We can both read the same amateur script and offer our take on what doesn't work and why then the writer can tell us which notes impressed them more. Or we can both enter a script into the Nichol this year and have a friendly wager to see who goes further in the contest. You're convinced that I do not know what I am talking about, and I'm convinced that you don't.
            Let's be clear on one thing -- we're both amateurs. Each of us sending a script to Nicholl would be a non-starter. I doubt that either one of us would make the first cut, so we would be to square one, having wasted an entrance fee to Nicholl.

            The problem is: I know you can't write screenplays, and it's becoming more and more obvious you can't critique them either. Personally, I'm not dumb enough to think I'm any good at critiquing screenplays, although I have done it a couple thousand times for short screenplays.

            I had a pretty good eye for what the majority thought were the best scripts -- normally I could predict who would take first, second and third and usually nail the top ten. This was for contests that sometimes would have over a hundred entries.

            But you want to know how I judged them? (I'll tell you anyway.) They stood out from the crowd -- they had characters I cared about -- and the writers knew how to string words together and make the scripts entertaining. A great story with a couple minor flaws, beat a lousy story that followed every "imaginary" guideline, every time.

            (Just to toot my own horn -- I had a winning script there that had the third highest rating out of all the 27,000 (or so) scripts that had been entered during the lifetime of the contest.) I even optioned it twice.

            But I'm amateur and so are you. Not even really amateurs, we're both amateur bench warmers. Although I think I've gotten off the bench a few more times than you.

            Here's the contest deal -- if you want to take it. It's non-negotiable. We each write a script, then you pay Titan Creed to critique both of them. (I want somebody who knows what he's doing.) The scripts will be entered anonymously so there's no chance of partiality. I've never dealt with Titan Creed or even corresponded with him.

            Anyway -- if you want to put your money where your mouth is -- go for it.
            "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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            • #51
              Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

              Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
              So, let's no one post here, if they have no sales. I agree, Why one, the only ones who should post should be those who have a career in writing. Let's see if we can get that done.
              I didn't say only people with careers should be posting here. I'm just comparing your advice to Jeff's. It isn't apples and oranges. Rather than taking your slice of humble pie, you continue to push back with (in my opinion) not-so-great screenwriting advice.

              I agree with Joe that your language implies absolutes. Maybe you don't see it or intend it, but it's certainly how it reads to the rest of us.

              And, yes, I have had a movie made and another two more in the development pipeline (fingers crossed). And, no, I don't think about the guru stuff like reversals, MDQ (?), point of failure etc when writing. And the notes I get are never about those things.

              It just isn't my process (personally). The only guru terminology I probably lean on are "setups" and "payoffs". In fact I'm pretty sure they're general terminology that movie watchers use.

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              • #52
                Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                Jeff, You're telling me that Mara and Affleck only make 2 mill each per film? That sounds really low to me, but I do not see their paychecks. I figured based off of the success of Gone Baby Gone, Manchester by the Sea, Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, The social Network, I thought they'd make much more.

                I understand Ghost Story took place in a contained setting, and was probably shot over a few weeks, and that Afflek and Mara saw artistic value in the story. I get it. For me, it was boring. I'm not one of those people that say a movie is good cause it received an award or got good reviews. What was your favorite scene in the film, Jeff? Just curious. We can do a TV pilot. That would be fine. I look forward to the challenge.

                Story - I've entered the Nichol four times. I only not made the cut once. Which was my first time submitting. It's really not difficult to make the cut. We can't use Titan Creed cause the script I am working on I have talked about here and posted the longline here, so there'd be no anonymity. You're not entering the Nichol? I thought most amateurs tried to submit to the Nichol. After all, it has started some careers and led to some sales. Why exactly am I paying for your fees though? What are you risking then? The loser should pay the fees. I'm all for gambling, if we're both gonna gamble. Your option stories and 3rd out the f 27,000 have me trembling in by skivies, really.

                What's the name of your movie that was made Why_One?

                I started this thread to try and help writers with the analysis of their own stories, which is a very tough thing to do. Analyze your own work. Then out of the woodwork came everyone with the guru, template, diagram talk.

                If some successful writers think heavily about theme, and some think nothing of it. Then why can't some writers consciously think about the moments that will turn their story, and others not?

                You can't say a movie needs set-ups and payoffs, that's an absolute. Am writer can sit down and write a script with no set-ups and payoff moments and the script could be just fine. Why, just look at the script for A Ghost Story.

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                • #53
                  Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                  Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                  I don't have time to have a "review off" of a feature, but I'll tell you what - apparently you read TV pilots as well. I'll take the challenge with a TV pilot, if that meets your criteria. (Preferably a half hour, because I really don't have a lot of time to waste, but if it has to be an hour script, so be it.)
                  I have a couple of flawed half-hour pilots that I'd be willing to offer up. The only issue that I see with a pilot is that they don't really adhere to the same rules and expectations of features. I'd even be willing to make them available to all who think they have the stomach to read them.

                  I also have the first couple of pilots I wrote, which is a tricky thing but close to an amateur's attempt; definitely an amateur attempt because I've never sold a pilot.

                  Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                  People have been analyzing stories and films from 2,000 years ago with Aristotle to people in the present day and found how consistently these percentages fall in a story.
                  Hey Joe,

                  Sorry to drag out a hobby horse, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Aristotle and his writings in The Poetics doesn't really match up with this 3-Act stuff as I've written about in this thread from a decade ago, so can we please put this "Aristotle is the progenitor of the 3-Act Structure" to bed?

                  Happy Holidays to all you fun and passionate DDers!

                  .
                  Last edited by KitchonaSteve; 12-26-2017, 04:57 PM. Reason: grammar typo
                  Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                  -Steve Trautmann
                  3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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                  • #54
                    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                    No one needs to thank me for starting this entertaining thread. I feel your appreciation.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                      Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                      No one needs to thank me for starting this entertaining thread. I feel your appreciation.
                      Cyfress, I've been screwing around with screenplays and on screenplay forums for around 20 years. I've seen a lot of people, who sounded like you, come and go in that time.

                      Newbies thinking they have it all figured out are almost universal. (I went through a brief period of that myself.) To most it finally dawns on them that a working pro is really a stupid person to argue with.

                      Being a pro screenwriter is not hereditary -- every one of them had to start out as amateurs. (There may be a few exceptions, but I bet it's a minute number.)

                      But occasionally a light bulb turns on and some folks realize they can go a lot further by listening to and not antagonizing the people who have already figured it out.

                      Good luck.

                      Happy New Year.
                      "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                      • #56
                        Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                        We must be reading different threads. I didn't hijack a thread that Jeff started and trolled him. He posted on a thread I started and he really wasn't that nice, but I engaged him in debate because this is after all a public message board.

                        Now all of a sudden I am antagonizing him? If Jeff's feelings are hurt and he needs a box of tissues, let him say so. He's a big boy. I've been around a long time too. I also have seen people come and go. Pros really don't post here that much and they never tell you about their process. So, what exactly are you listening too.

                        Are we gonna do the Nichol thing or not? The one who makes it further pays the other's entrance fee. I'd like to make a bet cause I'll be more motivated to finish it.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                          Hey, man, before I said a word, 100% of people reacting to your original post said it was angry, mean and belittling.

                          OK, challenge. KitchonaSteve, this is Cyfress's deal. He can choose whatever script he wants. I have one request and one requirement:

                          Request: I think it would be best to do a script that the writer has hopes for, and notes would be helpful to him/her. I think an old trunk script that the writer has abandoned is wasting an opportunity.

                          Requirement: Cyfress, if we're doing this, the only thing I won't accept is if, after the fact, you say "oh, I don't really do TV, this wasn't fair." If that's the case, I'm out.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                            I have some requirements too. After all is said and done, I want to read your notes on the piece you can read mine if you want to.

                            Jeff, if this was a football game, the odds makers would make you a two touchdown favorite for sure. No one here is expecting me to offer insight even half as good as yours, so I have nothing to lose. You won't here a single excuse from me, as long as the playing field is fair.

                            I don't care what the script is, just no period pieces. It's hard for me to make it through those.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              OK, challenge. KitchonaSteve, this is Cyfress's deal. He can choose whatever script he wants. I have one request and one requirement:

                              Request: I think it would be best to do a script that the writer has hopes for, and notes would be helpful to him/her. I think an old trunk script that the writer has abandoned is wasting an opportunity.
                              Completely agree. I offer three choices, two of my more recent pilots, and one from a few years ago that my former agent said wouldn't sell because Dane Cook's failed pilot that year was about a morning Shock-Jock:

                              WELCOME TO EARTH - A sexy alien cyborg sent to Earth to research humanity as a Las Vegas stripper encounters two nerds who convince her to be their roommate. Think NEW GIRL meets MORK & MINDY, except instead of a hairy, hyper-active guy, the alien is a human-looking woman with a computer for a brain. (multi-cam)

                              BEARDS - A sexy half-hour dramedy about a group of ambitious young women who find themselves posing as girlfriends, and even marrying, closeted gay male actors and athletes who even in 2017 find they have to keep their private lives "private" and their public lives complicated. Think "Sex and The City" meets "Entourage." (single-cam)

                              KEEP TALKING - A disgraced radio shock-jock trying to restart his career in Los Angeles is court ordered to include his ex-wife in his popular, new podcast to satisfy the terms of their divorce settlement. (I have single-cam and multi-cam versions of this. It needs the most work, so it might be the best choice for this exercise. The downside for me is that it's the second pilot I ever wrote, so it has a bunch of rough edges)
                              Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                              -Steve Trautmann
                              3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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                              • #60
                                Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                                I'm up for posting both sets of notes in public (if the writer agrees), so people beyond the writer can follow along. Again, the only reason for me to do this is that it may provide some educational value.

                                Cyfress, you want to pick one of Steve's? Whatever one you think you'll have the most insight into.

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