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Old 08-11-2016, 12:34 PM   #111
Crayon
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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Originally Posted by figment View Post
Yes, misogyny is an enduring tradition, like Christmas egg nog and brined turkey at Thanksgiving, it's meant to be cherished and its secrets passed down for future generations.

HONEY, what the hell are you even talking about?
I'm talking about gender inequality being ingrained at every level of culture and society because of misogynistic traditions that go back much further, wider and deeper than who cooks the turkey and who carves the turkey.
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Old 08-11-2016, 12:51 PM   #112
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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If that was satire, then you suck at it.
Maybe so. Although, I do think it succinctly (albeit crassly) expresses an underlying reason why female-led movies don't get a fair crack at an audience; as well as echoing a point you made earlier - that male-led box office failures may be unfairly immune to gender criticism.

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You need help.
Undoubtedly. But that doesn't alter my basic point that Hollywood is a business in a global market which has long and steadfast traditions of misogyny and inequality (Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Third World superstitions, Maoism, Western capitalist prejudice, working class bigotry, etc.) that will not vanish anytime soon. To think that Hollywood would, or could, operate contrary to that 'hard data' seems blindly optimistic - the money men (and women) will not allow it.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:53 PM   #113
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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Originally Posted by Crayon View Post
Undoubtedly. But that doesn't alter my basic point that Hollywood is a business in a global market which has long and steadfast traditions of misogyny and inequality (Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Third World superstitions, Maoism, Western capitalist prejudice, working class bigotry, etc.) that will not vanish anytime soon. To think that Hollywood would, or could, operate contrary to that 'hard data' seems blindly optimistic - the money men (and women) will not allow it.
I'm aware that there is a lot of sexism/misogyny internationally. But that doesn't automatically translate into proof that female-led movies don't do as well at the foreign box office because of that factor. If you have hard data showing that, I would love to see it.

In the meantime, here are some thoughts:

1) A very likely explanation for a disparity in performance between female-led and male-led films is genre trends. Men are more likely to lead action movies (particularly superhero movies, which dominate nowadays). Action movies are more likely to perform better at the global box office. Therefore, a lot of films successful internationally are male-led because a lot of action-films are male-led. So, you can't just say that male-led films perform better because of a gender bias, because a genre bias is more likely at play.

Support for this argument? The Hunger Games and Resident Evil are two of the biggest worldwide action franchises -- and are both female-led. In fact, Resident Evil is the most successful movie franchise based on a video game (http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/m...franchises/2/). So gender obviously didn't have an impact.

2) Venerable stats site FiveThirtyEight indicates that films that pass the Bechdel test perform about as well as films that don't when it comes to foreign grosses. Specifically it says:

The total median gross return on investment for a film that passed the Bechdel test was $2.68 for each dollar spent. The total median gross return on investment for films that failed was only $2.45 for each dollar spent. And while this might be a side effect of films with lower budgets tending to have higher returns on investment than films with higher budgets, it’s still a strong indicator that films with women in somewhat prominent roles are performing well.

Since Hollywood believes that international markets don’t want to see women in film, we also broke down the median return on investment for films based on domestic (U.S. and Canada) and international box office numbers. We found that Bechdel-passing films still have comparable returns on investment when the movies “travel.”

On the second test, we ran a regression to find out if passing the Bechdel test corresponded to having lower gross profits — domestic and international. Also controlling for the movie’s budget, which has a positive and significant relationship to a film’s gross profits,8 once again passing the Bechdel test did not have any effect on a film’s gross profits.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...sion-of-women/
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:31 PM   #114
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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Sadly, it can be inferred from 'hard data' that female-led movies make less money.
Actually, this is factually incorrect.

It's very hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison, because, obviously, the same movie doesn't get made and released at the same time with different gendered leads. But, you know:

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/10/res...-leads-212942/

Did Hunger Games do less well overseas than "The Dark Knight Rises" because it has a female lead, or because TDKR was bringing the team behind a huge hit back together working with one of the most beloved characters of all time?
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Old 08-11-2016, 03:54 PM   #115
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

I love this new Millennial Age rhetoric where people believe that if they quote enough surveys, studies or statistics, somehow their opinions become factual.

Wrong.

Your 'data' is meaningless because no matter how badly you want to believe it was compiled by some impartial non-profit third party, it wasn't.

It's tainted by the biases of whoever commissioned it, and then collected it and then interpreted it.

Speaking of bias, I noticed there wasn't a single article written about the failure of Disney's BFG this summer. Funny how we try and sweep things under the rug when they don't fit THE NARRATIVE.

I can just see whoever signed off on that one at the next Disney shareholders meeting, trying to explain that disaster: "But you guys, the DATA the DATA!"

I loved Bridesmaids and The Heat, but Ghostbusters was a terrible idea from day one. It would have been a terrible idea with an all male cast as well.

Hopefully next time Paul Feig is out promoting, he will take the high road and keep his mouth shut.
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:00 PM   #116
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

I'm not sure if that millennial thing was a crack at me or not. I'm not a millennial. I am, however, a former professional statistician.

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I loved Bridesmaids and The Heat, but Ghostbusters was a terrible idea from day one. It would have been a terrible idea with an all male cast as well.
Honestly, the main thing that was terrible about it was that they spend $150m making it.

$180m worldwide would have probably been fine if the movie had cost $70m. I mean, not a home-run, but whatever, a reasonably try that landed somewhere in the ballpark of okay. That's not a movie that needs to be that expensive. We're not talking about Pacific Rim, here (you can't make that movie at half its budget).

THere's a reason the just-announced Ocean's 8 movie has a budget around $70m.

I don't know anyone who is in love with the idea of branding properties like this - I'd much rather see an original, female-ensemble Ghostbusters-LIKE movie - but for the past few years, very few people have felt they could get anything made without that kind of built-in awareness. So we're going to be stuck like this until audiences start showing up for original material.
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:20 PM   #117
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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I love this new Millennial Age rhetoric where people believe that if they quote enough surveys, studies or statistics, somehow their opinions become factual.

Wrong.

Your 'data' is meaningless because no matter how badly you want to believe it was compiled by some impartial non-profit third party, it wasn't.

It's tainted by the biases of whoever commissioned it, and then collected it and then interpreted it.
Yes, all data is meaningless. And thus, so are all studies. All studies are conducted by people, and since all people have biases, no studies should ever be trusted. That's why we should stop all research, and justify everything with our gut instincts. Kinda like how some people made predictions in the last presidential election based on volume of yard signs. Everyone has an agenda, I tell ya! To hell with numbers!!

What are you, a Trump supporter?
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:26 AM   #118
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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Yes, all data is meaningless.
The statistics are correct with films in general, but you can't apply it to any particular film. A female-lead blockbuster can obviously be a hit (Hunger Games. Resident Evil, Salt), but if you completely *uck up your own female-lead blockbuster, it won't be.

Ghostbuster's failure was a result of numerous factors. I mean, if the four Ghostbusters were instead Adam Sandler, Kevin James, David Spade and Chris Rock, it also would've been a disaster.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:22 AM   #119
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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I'm not sure if that millennial thing was a crack at me or not. I'm not a millennial. I am, however, a former professional statistician.
Ha. Not at all.

I was very careful to not say 'Millennials', meaning people under 35, but rather Millennial Age to describe a new era of misinformed false logic which is currently dominating (some would say destroying) our news and public discourse.

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What are you, a Trump supporter?
That's my business, but I will say Trump would have been easily defeated six months ago during the primary process if there were a single journalist in America who was capable of being honest. The fact that people resorted to half-truths and lies to take him down is what's fueling his popularity.


I'll give you a good example of what I mean.

Everyone knows that Universal dominated 2015 box office for one simple reason:

Their 2 biggest franchise films, Jurassic World and Fast & Furious 7, both of which should have come out in 2014 but were delayed (Jurassic World because of script problems and FF7 because of the death of Paul Walker). Therefore, 3 billion dollars of revenue that should have posted in 2014 showed up on 2015's books.

It's really a boring accounting issue that's barely worth noting. Unless you work in Hollywood infotainment media, where everything has to get twisted into clickbait-y headlines

like this one

http://www.indiewire.com/2015/08/emb...ctures-202796/

or this one

http://www.salon.com/2015/08/27/we_h...wood_catch_up/

Are any of the statistics listed in those articles factually untrue? No.

But the entire thesis is a lie of omission, and it's so irritating to see that it actually turns people away from your cause because they're disgusted by the dishonesty of it, and this occurs after they had already been on your side to begin with.


It's like saying that Titanic was a success because the audience was overwhelmingly female and they were going to see a movie with a female protagonist.

Both statements are true, but we all know they were mostly going to see Leo. I don't have any data to support that statement, but I do have eyes and ears and a brain.
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:33 AM   #120
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Default Re: Ghostbusters Trailer

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Originally Posted by FoxHound View Post
The statistics are correct with films in general, but you can't apply it to any particular film. A female-lead blockbuster can obviously be a hit (Hunger Games. Resident Evil, Salt), but if you completely *uck up your own female-lead blockbuster, it won't be.
I didn't say they could be applied specifically to Ghostbusters or to any particular film. I supplied them to counteract the statement that female-led films automatically don't do well worldwide because of a gender bias. I was addressing a generalization.

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Ghostbuster's failure was a result of numerous factors. I mean, if the four Ghostbusters were instead Adam Sandler, Kevin James, David Spade and Chris Rock, it also would've been a disaster.
I don't agree with this. Like Ronaldinho said, if it had kept the budget down (in line with most other action comedies, and Paul Feig's past work), it would've been profitable and considered a success. They never should have spent so much on a sequel to a movie that has been out of the public consciousness for 30 years.

What are all these "numerous factors" you refer to?
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