Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

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  • #46
    Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

    Over the years, the one thing that I've come to accept is subjectivity in this business. It's just the way it is. And I think this is especially true in genre scripts. I actually think there's less variation in evaluations of dramas, in particular, biopics. If the writing is solid, generally speaking the material is often quite interesting whenever it's about a person who actually existed.

    It's a matter of luck if the person on the other end is someone who resonates with your script.

    I like the BLACKLIST but it's not for me. My highest rated script, with some 8s and 9s and an overall 7, got no pro downloads. That was a colossal waste of money -- for me.

    Another script (a contained ensemble thriller) got an overall 4, but went on to win a major contest (not one of the big four, but a respected one) and early this year it was optioned and is currently in production (and, yes, I've been paid). One of the actors -- a name actor -- said it's the most fun he's had in years, that he's tempted to spit his vitriolic lines, but he's managing to rein himself in in order to portray contained menace.

    The director likes it, the cast likes it; I'm happy BUT I don't think that the Blacklist reviewer was wrong. He/she said some nice things but slammed it with the scoring. That was the reviewer's subjective AND professional opinion. I gotta respect that as it's clear he/she read the script and gave it some thought. As there was nothing I could use in the weakness section of the review to make the script any better (other than, say, burn it), I simply ignored the "weaknesses" and pasted the "strengths" remarks into my original query letter. That got me reads that eventually lead to the option. My favorite line in the review said "It's not a very commercial or marketable property". Well, ha ha ha.

    But it's not just the BlackList reviewer -- my own manager -- who's opinion I value -- read another contained thriller/horror I wrote and he said he hated it. That the main character was completely unlikeable, and that it wasn't worth sending anywhere. That floored me, actually, because the main character is an extremely likeable guy who's drawn a bad hand. He tries to do the right ting as the story goes on. Well, that one came in second in another contest, got reads, got a producer on board, then a director and a pretty famous actress. It goes into production in June.

    The above is not to prove I'm right and they're wrong. I'm not right, I'm lucky. I knew I had something with these two scripts and I'm fortunate that I found like-thinking individuals.

    So through this process I've learned that the BlackList is not for me; and that my manager and I have a more limited shared viewpoint than I had first imagined. Indeed, both the reader and my manager may well be smarter than I am in terms of the business... but a good script doesn't need a consensus to be proven to be worth doing, it just needs that one "yes".

    That's what I learned.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
      I think this is by far the most unprofessional practice in the industry. I completely understand ignoring queries you didn't ask for, but If you request a writer's script, you should have an ethical obligation to respond one way or another to that writer.

      The good reps always respond-- as far as i can tell. And if not requesting your spec some even respond to queries with a polite "not for me" or "no thanks.". I figure if the big guys can do it, there's no reason to expect less from anyone else.

      Don't know about you, but that says a lot about a producer or rep.
      My two cents.
      There are lots of infuriating, unprofessional things about this industry and this is definitely one of them. What's interesting is that I've had this happen to me with execs/prodco's that I have a great relationship with. That is, people who have a script of mine under option already or people I'm already developing something with, and then I send them another script and they never get back to me on it! It's just their way of saying "no", basically, without having to say no, and in their minds (in some cases) I do think they see it as a super polite way to say no. I also think that, in some cases, the exec. or rep or whoever it is may be a little paranoid about going on the record as saying "no" to a particular project, just in case this project takes off down the line.
      Last edited by grumpywriter; 05-06-2015, 10:15 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

        Originally posted by Cooper View Post
        Over the years, the one thing that I've come to accept is subjectivity in this business. It's just the way it is. And I think this is especially true in genre scripts. I actually think there's less variation in evaluations of dramas, in particular, biopics. If the writing is solid, generally speaking the material is often quite interesting whenever it's about a person who actually existed.

        It's a matter of luck if the person on the other end is someone who resonates with your script.

        I like the BLACKLIST but it's not for me. My highest rated script, with some 8s and 9s and an overall 7, got no pro downloads. That was a colossal waste of money -- for me.

        Another script (a contained ensemble thriller) got an overall 4, but went on to win a major contest (not one of the big four, but a respected one) and early this year it was optioned and is currently in production (and, yes, I've been paid). One of the actors -- a name actor -- said it's the most fun he's had in years, that he's tempted to spit his vitriolic lines, but he's managing to rein himself in in order to portray contained menace.

        The director likes it, the cast likes it; I'm happy BUT I don't think that the Blacklist reviewer was wrong. He/she said some nice things but slammed it with the scoring. That was the reviewer's subjective AND professional opinion. I gotta respect that as it's clear he/she read the script and gave it some thought. As there was nothing I could use in the weakness section of the review to make the script any better (other than, say, burn it), I simply ignored the "weaknesses" and pasted the "strengths" remarks into my original query letter. That got me reads that eventually lead to the option. My favorite line in the review said "It's not a very commercial or marketable property". Well, ha ha ha.

        But it's not just the BlackList reviewer -- my own manager -- who's opinion I value -- read another contained thriller/horror I wrote and he said he hated it. That the main character was completely unlikeable, and that it wasn't worth sending anywhere. That floored me, actually, because the main character is an extremely likeable guy who's drawn a bad hand. He tries to do the right ting as the story goes on. Well, that one came in second in another contest, got reads, got a producer on board, then a director and a pretty famous actress. It goes into production in June.

        The above is not to prove I'm right and they're wrong. I'm not right, I'm lucky. I knew I had something with these two scripts and I'm fortunate that I found like-thinking individuals.

        So through this process I've learned that the BlackList is not for me; and that my manager and I have a more limited shared viewpoint than I had first imagined. Indeed, both the reader and my manager may well be smarter than I am in terms of the business... but a good script doesn't need a consensus to be proven to be worth doing, it just needs that one "yes".

        That's what I learned.
        Thank you, sincerely, for these fair and reasoned remarks. I actually agree with literally everything you've written here.

        Honestly, this is actually one of the most interesting posts I've read in any bulletin board, ever, about the site, for one big reason: You said that, despite the low score, you pasted the strengths remarks into the original query letter and that new letter got you reads that eventually led to the option.

        Did you mention that those were the Black List reader's comments? If so, I can't help but think that maybe the Black List IS for you.

        I can't emphasize enough that the Black List wasn't meant to be a magic genie that makes scripts get optioned and their writers' signed. Yes, many scripts that would have been overlooked prior to the Black List existing get attention that they wouldn't otherwise have received, and some of that attention results in signings, options, blind deals, movies getting made etc. But it's not a magic ticket. I talk a lot about this in The What, The How, and the Why of the Black List: The Long Answer, which is now on the About page. (https://blcklst.com/about/#what)

        The Black List website was always meant to be a platform whereby people could get quality feedback and comments on their script from a reputable source that would also bubble the most liked stuff to the top so that those scripts could get additional attention.

        Your use of the qualitative feedback in this situation was a stroke of genius, and though certainly the Black List didn't get you the option (as in all cases, the screenplay did), I can't help but think that the strengths comments from the site contributed to getting your script the attention it did (and I can't help but think that your inclusion of the strengths comments in your query letter indicates that you knew - or at least hoped - that it would.)

        So two things:

        1. If everything you've said is true, I'd love to have you get in touch so that we could do an interview with the Black List blog about how you, wisely, used your feedback on an evaluation with a low score to get the attention that eventually led to your script getting made.

        2. I'd love to give you a free month of hosting and a free evaluation, if only for pushing my thinking even further on how the site can be a tool for aspiring writers (but also to take another crack and showing you that the Black List IS for you.)

        So yeah, get in touch via DM here or by emailing the support address on the Help page of the site.

        And again, thank you for this post. And congrats on all your success. Sounds like things are going quite well.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

          Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post

          1. If everything you've said is true, I'd love to have you get in touch so that we could do an interview with the Black List blog about how you, wisely, used your feedback on an evaluation with a low score to get the attention that eventually led to your script getting made.


          And again, thank you for this post. And congrats on all your success. Sounds like things are going quite well.
          +1,000,000

          Great idea, Franklin! I'd love to read his story.

          Go, Cooper! Go, Cooper! Go, go, GO COOPER!

          "Running down a dream, that never would come to me." Tom Petty

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

            Unfortunately, this case is a rarity. The fact of the matter is Black List subscribers want to read an 8, not a 6 with tremendous praise.
            I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

              I too have used favorable snippets from BL readers in queries - and, for those people who've responded favorably to the pitch, not a one has asked me what my BL scores were (lowest was a 4). So - a "bad" score on the BL certainly can tank your script's chances on the BL itself - but doesn't necessarily mean your script won't find traction outside the BL.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                So... If you don't get a decent score on the Black List, it's not worth it?

                Based on what I'm hearing... that's the main benefit of it, otherwise it's worthless. Correct?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                  Correct. From my experience at least.

                  I had 3 reviews from BL and none was really helpful. (You can get much helpful free reviews from Talentville or Simplyscripts).

                  High score is the main benefit of it. Unfortunately.

                  Just to give you an idea, I'll post the review that I got recently...

                  "Weaknesses:
                  The script could use more cinematic setpieces as there are very few scattered throughout. While the script is contained taking place mostly in the Apartment complex; the story could benefit by creating some bigger moments that will help open up the story more. Too many of the scenes are defined by characters sitting around talking to each other instead of feeling proactive. In fact, it is not until the end do the scenes start feeling more visually stimulating with Maggie trying to escape. The dream sequence is another good example of finding additional ways to create cinematic moments. This will also allow the tone to be exploited which probably needs to be pushed more anyway in order to take advantage of the genre. While the mystery element is present; the thrills are much less so."

                  My screenplay is a low budget Sci-Fi (with some elements of Thriller/Mystery and Drama). The reader does not say anything about Promise, Characters, Dialogs or Plot... All he/she talks about is: "cinematic setpieces"... Turns out I have "a very few" of them, but how much "cinematic setpieces" one can have in a low budget spec screenplay?

                  Could you use that kind of review in your rewrite? I can't...

                  But, again, it's my experience... Others my have better luck...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                    I think what they are telling you is actually very helpful for you. Set pieces do not have to be wild car chases where there is a big explosion at then end, I mean in Action films there are, but every genre has its 'set pieces' even low budget sci fi. If it was me, and that's the kind of feedback I got back, I'd really have to take a good look at how motivated my characters are in each scene. I bet you have quiet a few scenes where characters are sitting around just spilling the beans together. Set Pieces are the 'big moments' of any story. They are big reversal points, or moments or great revelation within the story.

                    Let me tell you something that I had to admit to myself long ago. 1) 90% of all amateur material is under developed. 2) Everyone thinks they are in the 10%

                    I found no point in being a member of group 2 any more. What's the point?

                    To the original poster, I am not picking on you, just telling you things I've realized along the way and if I had a time machine would desperately want to tell myself 15 years ago.

                    I think Rigidity is the number one cause why amateur writers fail. For some reason writers love to cling with what they have on the page. They write a first draft and then they are willing to clean up and polish this draft, but not very willing to steer away from it in any way. If you are a true writer then at some point the story will take over and start talking to you. Moments you've lacked up until this point, bursting in your head one after another. You don't get there in one draft. Original Poster, I'm not saying you did one draft - only you know how hard you worked on the script. But I would take a good look at my structure if I were you.

                    EDITED TO ADD

                    Amateurs really, really need to be weary of blaming 'subjectivity' as the reason why their script was not well received. Subjectivity comes into play when there is craftsmanship on the page. Once you've mastered the technical aspects of craftsmanship, then you can say well, hey, this business is subjective.
                    Last edited by Cyfress; 05-09-2015, 06:42 AM. Reason: ADDED

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                      Originally posted by murgvaela View Post

                      My screenplay is a low budget Sci-Fi (with some elements of Thriller/Mystery and Drama). The reader does not say anything about Promise, Characters, Dialogs or Plot... All he/she talks about is: "cinematic setpieces"... Turns out I have "a very few" of them, but how much "cinematic setpieces" one can have in a low budget spec screenplay?

                      Could you use that kind of review in your rewrite? I can't...
                      I'm with Cyf. I think there's a very good chance that this is an incredibly useful note. It means you're not exploiting your concept deeply enough and creating moments that the audience is going to want to pay their money to see onscreen.

                      Even in a low-budget film, the audience expects to be thrilled. I mean, let's take a step back, and talk about a hypothetical romantic comedy.

                      How would you feel about a romantic comedy that didn't give us interesting dynamic scenes between men and women trying to figure out this whole love and sex thing until the third act? That mostly consisted of people sitting around and talking about stuff related to dating, rather than going out and doing it?

                      I'm not saying such a film couldn't succeed, but it would be very, very hard to make work, right?

                      Imagine a movie like Chronicle where the kids didn't actually do anything with their superpowers until the third act? Would you be excited to see that movie?

                      Even a movie like Primer - which is a low-budget SF - has lots of stuff happening, the guys doing stuff, surprises and twists throughout the movie.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                        But what if your reviews are contradictory? What kind of help is that? One reviewer gave my sci-fi 7's and 8's. Said it was 'Fantastic!" "Good work!" "Sellable property in on draft." Then the next gives me 3's and 4's saying I need a page one re-write. Gee, thanks.
                        I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
                          But what if your reviews are contradictory? What kind of help is that? One reviewer gave my sci-fi 7's and 8's. Said it was 'Fantastic!" "Good work!" "Sellable property in on draft." Then the next gives me 3's and 4's saying I need a page one re-write. Gee, thanks.
                          You're essentializing these evaluations in a way that's not at all productive. Unless your question is entirely rhetorical, why not include the actual substance of the evaluations as other posters have done?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                            Do people still get served, or is that so 2004?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                              As before, I'm solely talking from my experience and my POV. And, as before, I admit that some of you may have a DIFFERENT experience...

                              Now, I will say it again, (since some of you had hard time to figure out what my post was about):

                              The BL main benefit is high scores, not their reviews. Period.

                              You could get much more detailed and much more useful reviews on Triggerstreet... For free. (I can post one such free review here, if you are interested)

                              Now, about the review I posted... I posted it for illustration, not for getting additional lecture about the "cinematic setpieces"...

                              I was saying that in a good review a reader would talk about the Promise, Characters, Dialogs or Plot... That's it. Am I saying something wrong?

                              Hitchcock ones said that good movie must have at list 3 setpieces. And, I read somewhere, a good paced movie must have 3 or 4 of them. (By the way, can someone tell me how many cinematic setpieces are in "Rosemary's Baby" or "Twelve angry men"?)

                              "Very few scattered around" means that the reader found in my low budget screenplay at least 2 or 3 set pieces. Now, if I add 2 or 3 more, will my screenplay get higher scores in Promise, Characters, Dialogs, or Plot?

                              No.

                              Conclusion? Not very helpful review. (no matter how much you love it, I still find it too generic: it could be easily applied to 90% of the screenplays)

                              As I said it here:

                              http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...t=78890&page=2

                              The BL is a wonderful tool if you score 8+ and, I may send my screenplay there again... But, I will do it for high scores, not for a review.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Black List Reader Gave Me A 5 - Now What?

                                Originally posted by FranklinLeonard View Post
                                1. If everything you've said is true, I'd love to have you get in touch so that we could do an interview with the Black List blog about how you, wisely, used your feedback on an evaluation with a low score to get the attention that eventually led to your script getting made.
                                Firstly, congratulations on finding success! I'd also love to hear how you used this, especially since we just got a lowish evaluation score but some really positive written feedback. Keen to use it in queries, but curious as to how to present said information.

                                Actually, here's the entire evaluation, for what it's worth:

                                ALICE IN ZOMBIELAND

                                Strengths:
                                This is a fantastic premise that is sure to catch the attention of industry readers. It is grabby and executed well, staying true to the exciting and beloved original themes and characters, but doing so in an extremely unique and not derivative way. There are plenty of easter eggs throughout for old fans of Alice and Wonderland, but the script also does a really nice job of creating the world in its own fashion making it so that younger audiences that might not be familiar with the original story can still comprehend this one without prior knowledge of Alice's history. Lily is a great addition and her voice is coming through with a lot of strength. She adds some solid, subtle humor to the script because of her stubbornness. Her present day attitude and how in touch she is with the technology is a great way to establish her character before throwing her into Wonderland. When Lily starts to understand and put together that everyone knows her mother towards the third act it really pulls the story full circle. It's a great moment because we've already see that it's been established for Lily to not respect Alice and now she's learning that there's more to her mom's history than she could have ever imagined. The dialogue is funny in a very dry way due to the parody aspect of the old story, but also the fantasy characters.

                                Weaknesses:
                                It would be nice to get even a better idea of who Alice is as a protagonist. One of the ways to accomplish this will be to dive deeper into what makes her tick in that first act before the Rabbit visits her. Her relationship with Charlie and Lily actually are coming off as a little bland and on the nose right now in an almost cliche like manner. Try to give the audience a better understanding for the person Alice has become over the past few decades and what's led her to this place. Right now she facilitates the plot wonderfully and gets in her groove once back in Wonderland, but it's hard to get a read for the layers and development of her character as well as what she wants when we first meet her. She has an intense call to action, but there isn't a lot to connect with on how we want to watch her grow as an audience. Play up Alice's trying to connect with Lily because that works well on Lily's character side. Lily's ability to really see the worth in her mother even though she had trouble connecting with her in the first act is a strong character layer and bit of growth. In turn, if we could see Alice's motivations in a similar fashion it would parallel the fact that she's actually trying to save her and make conversations like the one with the White Queen in the third act more climactic.

                                Prospects:
                                This is a very well written script that at the very least will prove to be a strong writing sample for the writers. In the coming draft, the main focus will be to really hone in on what makes Alice tick these days. We know she's changed since we saw her last (if we know the old Alice and Wonderland), but we need to get a better sense of what motivates her. If it's Lily and her relationship with Lily, that needs to be better established and not so cliche in the first act. There's a lot going for this premise and the action is gruesome in a good way. It would take a pretty big budget to pull off, but will definitely catch the attention of industry readers.

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