NOTES! HOW DO I HANDLE NOTES FROM IDIOTS?

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  • #16
    Re: Artistic integrity

    I would say that there's an art to receiving development notes and applying them to your screenplay.

    Then again, the term "art" has specific connotions for me that it may not have for a lot of people. I look at just about every human activity, where the person approaches said activity with a mix of skill and talent and an attitude of sacredness* (as well as many other ambiguous factors), as "art". Cooking can be art, riding a bike can be art, screenwriting can be art, a business deal can be a work of art as can a lawyer's closing arguments in a case, a perfect run-out in pool can be a work of art, etc...

    JMHO, but I don't think there has to necessarily be a conflict between the terms "art" and "craft". In other words, you can raise the craft to the level of art (which is a rather crude and insufficient way of putting it; but you get my point).


    * "sacredness" as I'm using the term is not to be confused with "artistic integrity". I'm talking more about the mindset of the person while they're doing the activity in question.

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    • #17
      Re: question for Zod or anyone

      <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't understand why this is such a big no-no. If you have some artisitic integrity and believe in your work you cannot sit by and see it changed/altered to the detriment of the piece by someone who has got it wrong.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

      You have obviously never been on the other side of this equation. Have you ever tried to give notes to someone who believed their work was perfect the way it is? Even small notes. You get the response, "well that's not my story." It's like banging your head against a wall.

      Most of us can go without that kind of frustration. They should go home and write their "art" and leave the rest of us out of it.

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks!

        Zoditch - send that post to Script Magazine... really.

        SERIOUS Q:

        This post couldn't have come at a better time. I just got notes on my treatment... and these notes can not work.

        The problem is - the producer expects me to make them work.

        One note removes the protag's goal - the question/quest which drives the story. He wants it out of there! The protag is a smart guy - he should know all of the answers from page 1.

        I have been taking notes for the past 12 years... but I don't think I've ever had notes like these. These are script-killers. Almost every note doesn't just make the story worse - it removes the ability for a story.

        Because I was amazed by these notes, I decided to give page 1 & 2 of my treatment and page 1 of the notes to 4 friends in the biz. I didn't tell them what to think (but they probably figured out I didn't like the notes). Two writers, a director and a development person who has guided an Oscar winning script to the screen (plus was producer on a film we have all seen). All 4 had the same reactions to the first pages of notes - the same reactions as I had. These notes are just plain wrong.

        I had a tip called No Bad Notes that said hidden in notes you don't understand is the producer's problem with the story - our job is to search for the clues and figure out what he really means.

        I've searched for the clues and can't figure it out. The devo/producer advised me to quit the job after reading the notes - she thinks the producer is self destructive.

        So - how should I deal with these notes? From the producer's side of the desk - if you gave notes that were just plain wrong, what would you expect the writer to do?

        - Bill (12 years of experienced & baffled)

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        • #19
          The answer is simple:

          Kill him.


          Or, have him killed.

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          • #20
            Re: The answer is simple:

            I'm with TonyRob.

            Post a message in "Opportunities" offering free coverage for anyone willing to "do some cleaning" for you.

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            • #21
              Re: The answer is simple:

              lol

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The answer is simple:

                But getting back to ZODITCH's point, it's important to be mentally prepared to receive notes. You need to have a game face, and it should be friendly.

                Take a few minutes to don your emotional armor before you receive notes, whether you're getting them in a gigantic office at a studio or over in the loglines forum. You'll be glad you did.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Thanks!

                  Bill:

                  Mostly, I agree with TonyRob. Can you still get away with that in Dybrovnik?

                  When I was writing this thing on notes, I actually thought of the discussion we had at the DD party.


                  "So - how should I deal with these notes? From the producer's side of the desk - if you gave notes that were just plain wrong, what would you expect the writer to do?"

                  (First of all, let no one think that Bill really doesn't know what to do. He's posing this as a illustrative question. I've known Bill and his career for a while, people ask HIM this same thing.)

                  But for me to answer it, I would say "I don't give wrong notes". Unfortunately, the producer that Bill is dealing with feels the same way.

                  There is a huge difference between getting notes from a writer and a non-writer. You can tell immediately who you are dealing with by the distinction. Writer/Producers don't give notes that they cannot conceive being able to do themselves. Non-Writing producers just throw out notions, visuals and "neat ideas", without considering the impact they have on story.

                  Now, without knowing the whole story that you are dealing with, here is something that has worked for me in the past.

                  When you get these notes, you begin to think that the person is giving notes on some other script because it has nothing to do with the one you are writing. So if it gets to that case, maybe consider throwing EVERYTHING OUT and starting ONLY with the notes you were given. You will basically write a NEW script that DOES make sense of the notes. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but only in the short run. Trying to fight and incorporate ridiculous notes bit by bit will destroy you.

                  What about the things you loved in your original? Save it for the next script. That's part of the beauty of this method. Not only do you address the "notes", but you manage to keep your original love untainted by it.

                  I had a series idea that was bought a while back that was based around the true life story of a paraplegic who was also an investigative reporter. You know what the note was? Does he have to be handicapped? After patiently pointing out that his struggle and conflict with his affliction while doing something that "normal" people do WAS the story, I finally said "fine." Then I proceeded to change absolutely everything about the original concept. I kept my pilot deal in place and I kept my real story intact (and in my ownership).

                  Now, if you do choose the path of darkness and rewrite everything, obviously you can take your name off it. I've done this three times in my life.

                  The last choice, of course, is to walk away. That mostly depends on how pissed off you are. Because the bottom line is that you could write exactly what the producer wants, with no regard to quality, take your name off it and cash the check. You have to decide whether you really want to do that.

                  Writing script is like wanting to start a family. You start with a desire to create a beautiful baby, you go about it by making love to your wonderful mate, and the result is a miracle of creation.
                  Then again, there are also times when you just F**k and accept the consequences.

                  ZODITCH

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                  • #24
                    Back On Track

                    Over the past dozen years, I have had tons of notes. The key really is not to be combative or defensive - not to take them presonally. The notes aren't about you, they are about the script.

                    The weird part is - usually those notes you think are dumb are pretty good... you just have to figure them out. The note may be about a scene on page 54 when the real problem is that some element wasn't set up very well on page 14. Notes are usually like treasure hunts - you are given some clue and must solve the riddle to figure out what's really wrong with the script. 99% of the time the notereally points out a flaw in your script - it was just pointing in the wrong direction.

                    The key really is to check your emotions at the door and just listen. Later on - decode the notes.

                    I'm still trying to decode my notes. I'm sure that buried within them is the key to what the producer really wants. He wouldn't have written these notes unless he thought they were going to make the script better... I just have to figure out what he thinks is "better" and decide how I can give him that thing. Currently it's frustrating because I have not been able to crack the code.

                    I'm currenly working on some questions to clarify WHY the producer wants these things. I think that will help both of us see the same story.

                    Which is what it really comes down to - sharing the same story in your minds and getting that down on the page. They see the story one way, you see it another way. Somewhere in between is that story in a form you both can see.

                    - Bill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Artistic integrity

                      Pindercarl: if your 'Holy Grail' is simply to have your work seen, that is your perogative. You propose that the artistic merit of the piece diminishes its saleability - to me it enhances it. I imagine you are thinking of 'art films' - I made no such argument that artisic integrity was the sole domain of low to medium budget films where the subject matter is some existential piff-paff, meaning of life, over-earnest drama set on the left bank. Great art is universal. It can exist anywhere and in all media - even action films or comedy, you just have to look harder to find it.

                      My point was about protecting ones work and debating/arguing/convincing others of my ideas in the face of contrary argument.

                      Screenwriting is a business. Nobody is labouring under the illusion that it is anything but, thats not to say it can't be art - to hypothecate that leads down the path that says all literature is not art - and that simply is not the case. What happens when a studio gets hold of the work is a seperate matter. Screenwriting then becomes a product for sale to the highest bidder - does it cease to be art then - no. Should we feel less protective toward our work because it is sold - maybe we should. But, while you still have a say, while you can still influence the outcome, I would at least try. I don't advocate acting like some fvcking primadonna and pi$sing in someones ear about how Hollywood corrupts art. I advocate reasonable discourse, not just rolling over.

                      Ultimately, once you have sold it - 'they' do what they like. You lick your wounds and go buy that Maranello 550 for the comfort thats in it.

                      IMHO

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                      • #26
                        Re: Back On Track

                        Bill:

                        This may or may not help you, but here's a piece of advice I was given in UCLA screenwriting class: whenever you get a note on something, ignore the suggested fix. Just look at the part of the script that inspired the note, and figure out what you were trying to accomplish in that scene, or with that dialogue, or whatever it is. Go back and look at your intention for that piece of writing and figure out a better way to accomplish your intention. If you can succeed in that, you are essentially addressing the note by making what you wrote work better to accomplish your original intention.

                        Hope that helps.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Good advice.

                          All of Z's advice is spot-on. People take note. lol... seriously...

                          I'll just offer this advice: if you're ever in a situation where the person giving you notes is clearly clinically 'crazy,' then knowing this can be extremely freeing. True story...

                          I was in a "notes" session w/a network exec. overseeing a series I was the showrunner on. Also in the meeting (besides us) were the writer of the specific episode and the development exec. from the company that produced the show. (The develop. exec. also co-created the series.) After about 45 minutes of insane ramblings from the network exec., and the writer taking quiet, copious notes (writing down everything she said), and me nodding quietly, our development exec. had had enough. She turned to the network exec. and said: "You are insane! Seriously, clinically, crazy!" To which the network exec. blandly looked over to the development exec. and said in a preternaturally calm voice: "I'm sorry you feel that way."

                          And it was was in that one, calming bit of dialogue she uttered in response to being called "insane" that we then knew she was truly crazy... bipolar... something was wrong. The glassy sheen over her eyes was further proof. But clearly the mood-altering medication was doing its job that day to keep her "even."

                          Knowing she was crazy made that note-session so much more... oh, I don't know, fun? Freeing? A good story?

                          Soon after she was axed and we merrily continued on making our little show.

                          --rpm

                          p.s. I think some of her notes might have made our scripts better. Damn!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Back On Track

                            WCMARTELL:

                            I certainly would be intersted to know how this situation with your producer is resolved. Maybe you could keep us up to date as it evolves.

                            AL

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                            • #29
                              The Whole Truth

                              To paraphrase a great aside by Ken Lonnergan...

                              'They [producers, studio execs] try and move your original idea to the nearest cliche. Our job is to move that cliche to the nearest original idea...'

                              And that is Hollywood screenwriting.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Art vs. commerce &quot;discussion&quot;

                                zod> great post, because the whole "artist" argument gets so tiring (believe me, I experience this all the time itrw) or is tired, whatever

                                but, you said:

                                <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> "You are only an "artist" up until the moment that you sell your "art". At that point, your "art" becomes "product" and you become contract labor. You are working for an employer and that employer is going to want what they bought to be fashioned in ways according to their taste and style. ...

                                You: Employee.
                                Them: Employer.
                                A good Employer values the opinions of the person they hired. A good Employee knows who is paying for their talents and also knows that those talents have value to the Employer."<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

                                And I have 2 points about this.
                                1: Most screenwriters are paid cash/1099s/contractor aren't they? That is an entirely different relationship than "employee" and "employer" (for real, I'm not just trying to parse an argument. But if you were referring to TV writing or some other arrangement, I take it back.)
                                I mention this because the relationship implies that you are an <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> independent <!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> contractor (with the taxes to prove it).

                                2: I am sure that the likes of Soderbergh, the Coens, Khourie, and others would/maybe/possibly/might take issue with your statement.

                                It is a biz of course but it is also artistic. I disagree with the notion I'm a business person who's creative. <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> I'm an artist who hopefully understands the reality of the business.<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->

                                --inks

                                Edit: had to read rest of thread, one must be so careful these days. And to <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> strongly <!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> concur with Basic Bs point - I was just thinking that myself!

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