NOTES! HOW DO I HANDLE NOTES FROM IDIOTS?

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  • #31
    Questions.

    I'm getting the impression that one shouldn't even ask questions in the original notes session because doing so may open up another can of worms. Is this correct?

    Also, I thought that taking your name off something was viewed as a slap in the face. Is this not the case? Or is it just the lesser of two evils?

    Thanks - Maestro

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    • #32
      Re: Art vs. commerce "discussion"

      1: Most screenwriters are paid cash/1099s/contractor aren't they? That is an entirely different relationship than "employee" and "employer" (for real, I'm not just trying to parse an argument. But if you were referring to TV writing or some other arrangement, I take it back.)
      I mention this because the relationship implies that you are an independent contractor (with the taxes to prove it).

      For the point I am making, that's a difference without a distinction. You have been hired or your product has been bought. By WGA guidelines, even if you have a spec script that is purchased, you owe a rewrite. You are still in the position of providing services to an entity which is purchasing them. How the deal is structured financially or tax-wise wasn't my point.

      2: I am sure that the likes of Soderbergh, the Coens, Khourie, and others would/maybe/possibly/might take issue with your statement.

      Which one? If they have been hired as a screenwriter, they are subject to the same dynamics. They might have more pull than others because of their history, but it doesn't change the dynamics. As far as notes are concerned, their job is still to convince, comply or ca-wit. ("quit". Couldn't make that work without the respelling). All working screenwriters, no matter what level of their accomplishment, will get notes and, to varying degrees, have to address them. Randy Wallace, Alan Ball, William Goldman, and the ones you mentioned.

      Now, if they are writing/directing/producing their own film, then that's different. And the audience value of their name will add weight to the them when dealing with the studio. But even then.

      And, hey, no one said a Deli could be Art. (some will get that, some won't, the ones that do wish they hadn't.)

      ZODITCH

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      • #33
        Taking My Name off!

        I have taken my name off films - it's always a mistake. It's pride - one of those 7 deadly sins.

        Getting a movie made - ANY movie made - is almost impossible. It's like gearing up for a war... then winning the war. So if you are the writer of BEACH GIRLS or VAMPIRE LUST or THE LAST WOMAN ON EARTH or TONIGHT FOR SURE (a T&A flick) or some Roger Corman movie about naughty nurses - you have accomplished something close to impossible! You have become a produced screenwriter! It took the guys who wrote TOP GUN a decade to get one of the projects they were paid to write up on screen. I have a friend who has been writing scripts for the past ten years that haven't been made (after 3 films did get made). You may look at BEACH GIRLS and want to take your name off - but there are dozens of paid pro writers who have never had anything go to screen who would kill or die for that credit. They would love to have their name on some soft porn movie like TONIGHT FOR SURE. When someone asks them what movies they've written, they could say - I wrote this art house film called TONIGHT FOR SURE about a virgin struggling with his sexuality in a post sexual revolution world - it's on CineMax tonight. That's certainly better than saying nothing you've written has ever been made.

        Your name on a movie also insures you keep working. "What has he done recently?" Even if you've written WILD WILD WEST - that's something. (In fact - that's something huge - it's better to have written an awful big budget film than a really great low budget film). If you are producing scripts that people sink the entire budget of a film into - you must be doing something right. The difference between paying you to write a script, and making the huge committment to funding the film means something.

        Your name also is usually a money issue... but that's the least of our concerns.

        A director and I both worked on a film that turned out REALLY crappy. He was hired to replace a fired director, I was hired to replace a fired writer. We both worked hard to make the film good - but we had little to work with. The director asked me if I was going to put my name on the film, "Hell no." "That's what I was thinking." Neither of us has our name on it... It gets better reviews than many of the films where I did take a credit. One of the video guide books calls it the best in the genre (which includes other films I've written). The lesson we both learned from this - one man's ceiling is another man's floor. I may think the film is crap - but I am not a film critic.

        By the way - the guy who wrote TONIGHT FOR SURE won an Oscar for screenwriting a few years later for PATTON.

        - Bill

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        • #34
          Re: Taking My Name off!

          T & A flick????

          @#%$ and Ass - a wild stab in't dark!?

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          • #35
            Thanks for saving me...

            Zoditch, if you've read my most recent email then you know that I was seriously considering shredding up my pilot script and abandoning my screenwriting career. But I think you've just saved me from making a terrible mistake I probably would've regretted.

            Using the metaphor of an artist and his work really put things into perspective for me (I think you know I'm a sculptor/interior decorator). I'm hired to create one of a kind pieces for my clients. They decide shape, color, texture, size and I use my creative talents to produce a sculpture based on their expectations. I don't think of it as "selling out" I just think of it as a job -- a job I love with all my heart -- but it's still a business. Your wise words have helped me to see things more objectively. Screenwriting is a business not an artform. I either cash in, or check out.

            I think I might just stick around for a while longer.

            Thanks, love.

            KMS

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            • #36
              In short

              I'm sorry but, what is the difference between screenwritng, poetry, prose, verse, lyrics - the form.

              Why screenwriting is not considered to be an 'art' has yet to fully convince me. Writing a screenplay, in a literal sense, is not a business. Selling a screenplay is a business. The fact that you sell something does not alter the essential elements of which it consists. I know screenwriting is certainly not considered high art, because it serves a populist medium - Film, and we are loathe to elevate anything popular to greatness.The fact that screenplays can be bought and sold does nothing to distinguish it from all other art, if anything it sits it squarely with all other art that is sold; painting, sculpture, music, literature in all its forms.

              If I write Hamlet out in screenplay form dost in not intoneth "art" in your hearts mind?

              KMS: I would certainly be more inspired to continue
              screenwriting if this was considered art rather than, prosaicly, a business. How you can derive any motivation seeinng things this way is beyond me.

              Everyone to their own I guess, and all in my HO.

              Love Al (kiss, Kiss)

              (snigger)

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              • #37
                Re: Thanks!

                (This message was left blank)

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                • #38
                  Re: Thanks!

                  I disagree.

                  I think the writing of a screenplay IS art.

                  I think the SELLING of a screenplay is business. When it's sold, and you owe a re-write, you return to the art in a business-like manner, adjusting the script for someone else.

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                  • #39
                    Re: In short

                    <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> The fact that screenplays can be bought and sold does nothing to distinguish it from all other art, if anything it sits it squarely with all other art that is sold; painting, sculpture, music, literature in all its forms.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

                    This is where your logic breaks down, ali. The "problem" with scripts is not that they're bought and sold, but that they are bought by people who intend to make another, final art form.

                    They are people who have input into the final product--the film or tv show. If you refuse to accept that input gracefully and/or refuse to make the notes work, you will likely not get a chance to do it again. Screenwriters collaborate. Good screenwriters collaborate well.

                    And it's pointless to talk about whether scripts are an art or not. Just do it well and let others stick labels on it.

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                    • #40
                      ho hum

                      Hcon:

                      Not my logic, was in response to others logic.

                      Read the thread, instead of making lazy comments and you'll understand.

                      Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!

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                      • #41
                        Re: ho hum

                        Ali,

                        Reading the thread is indeed good advice. You should try it.

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                        • #42
                          Re: ho hum

                          <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'm sorry but, what is the difference between screenwritng, poetry, prose, verse, lyrics - the form.

                          Why screenwriting is not considered to be an 'art' has yet to fully convince me. Writing a screenplay, in a literal sense, is not a business. Selling a screenplay is a business. The fact that you sell something does not alter the essential elements of which it consists.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

                          A screenplay is different from poetry and prose in the same way an architect's blueprint is different from a painting. A screenplay is utilitarian. It's function over form.

                          Let's say that it <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> is<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> art, and I believe that it is. What difference does that make in any practical application? None. If the architect refused to make changes to his precious design despite notes from the client, then he'd be fired and someone else brought in. Same with the screenwriter.

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                          • #43
                            Re: ho hum

                            Bingo, Megamoze. A perfect analogy.

                            KMS

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                            • #44
                              Re: In short

                              Alipali, I have to think of screenwriting as a business instead of an artform because I have a tendancy to get emotionally attached to projects, people, animals etc. If I can't take an emotional step back and view what I do as "work" instead of "art" then I become narrow focused and loose objectivity.

                              Joe Straczynski (creator of Babylon 5) made a good point in a book he wrote on screenwriting. If you give birth to only one child, you become fiercely protective of that precious offspring. You don't want anyone insulting or molesting her, and you freak out when she falls and gets a little bump on the head.

                              But if you have five or six more kids, you learn to relax a little bit. If they fall, you clean the wound and send them back out to play.

                              This was the problem I was having with my TV pilot, THE BLACK TOWER. For six years nothing mattered but this one show, and learning that it may never, ever go into production put me into a serious depression earlier this week. I had the script in my hand, hovering over the shredder, ready to just rid myself of it all.

                              Now, thanks to Zod, I've seen where I went astray. No more "one trick pony" for this chick. I'm taking a step back from THE BLACK TOWER, developing new projects and letting go of my obsession with this one project. If the pilot gets sold, yahoo! If it doesn't, I really don't care all that much. (Although I do feel bad for the actors and writers who were hoping to get some work out of it).

                              I just want to write great stories for TV. And if that means I have to approach it like a business in order to succeed, so be it.

                              KMS



                              BTW, Zod, I'm watching Sheena right now. It's the episode with Cutter's ex-wife, the hostage negotiator (a plane is hijacked). Damn, I wish this show would be renewed for another season! Isn't there anything you can do???

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Craft - Precision Manufacturing.

                                It's a craft. Precision manufacturing.

                                When an painter finishes with a canvas - it's done! It can now be viewed in a gallery. It has reached its final form.

                                When a novelist finished writing a novel, it's done! It can be read in finished form on the 8.5x11 typing paper... or typeset and bound and published. A novel is the final form.

                                When a playwright finished a play... it must be performed by actors before it reaches it's final form. A play usually goes through a series of try-outs where it is rewritten. It's not uncommon for a play to be completely different by the time it reaches Broadway... and even then, no one reads a play but actors... the final form is what happens on the stage. It's the play and the actors and the lighting and the director and the costumes and the set design... all of those things make a contribution to the final form.. If you buy a play at Sam French, they have original cast list, set design notes, and all kinds of other information BESIDES the play itself.

                                Same thing with a screenplay. It's NOT a final form. No one in the world reads screenplays except producers, readers, and other folks whose job is to MAKE A MOVIE. The entire purpose of a screenplay is to be made into a movie. A finishhed screenplay is one step in the making of a movie... but the movie is the final form. The movie is what people will see - that's where it can be art (or not). An unproduced script is just a piece of craftsmanship - a really nice gear that runs a machine.. but there is no machine.

                                But no matter what - it's only art if you're dead.

                                You don't get to decide if it's art or not, time and critics will.

                                - Bill

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