NOTES! HOW DO I HANDLE NOTES FROM IDIOTS?

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  • #46
    To The Great Zod

    I wish I would have had this post when I was in a writing group that broke every "rule" The Great Zod listed. I finally had to quit the group because of how the other writers handled the critque and basically attacked anyone who made a comment about their manuscript. Several times I attempted to explain how everyone should conduct themselves but not even close to how perfect it is laid out here. I on the other hand wanted any bit of info they could give me. It thrilled me to listen to their ideas and suggestions- I ate it up. I can't wait to finish my script so someone can read it then tell me all the ways I can make it better.

    Thank you Zoditch for taking the time to write such detailed posts (yes, I'm a Zoditch groupie - I save your posts to a disk for future reference) and allowing me to learn along the way. I'm so tempted to email your post to the others so they can learn too but I'll just send it to my partner. She'll know exactly why I'm sending it to her. I'm just wondering why you would think no one would post because you said not to - don't you know everyone has a little kid in them and when someone says no, it's an open invitation!

    Cheryl

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    • #47
      zod- thank you.

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      • #48
        this is like religion & politics...

        [rant]
        Writing screenplays is an art. True that they can be changed and it's collaborative in the end but any writer worth their salt recogonizes the creative & artistic process that goes into it. And a collabortaive process can still be highly creative and artistic.

        To say, KMS, as you do that it is a "business" <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> only<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> is quite simply -- wrong. Yes ~ there are aspects of it, such as marketing, selling, etc. as Fredd points out that are business, but nothing about sitting down with your imagination and putting your voice to paper is business. Unless you have no voice or heart, in which case you may as well be making tire parts.
        [/rant]

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        • #49
          Re: In short

          Perhaps I can offer an analogy that will finally put screenwriting in its proper perspective vis-a-vis other "art forms."

          Yes, screenwriting is an art. It is also a craft. In fact, all forms of art require craft. I don't even know why people insist on drawing a distinction between those two classifications. The business element is always raised because there seems to be the inevitable issue of compromise. The need to compromise does not define screenwriting as a business. All art that endeavors to sell requires a business transaction.

          That being said, here is the big difference between screenwriting and other forms of art that don't require compromise. If you are a painter or sculptor or rug weaver, you have exactly one person to satisfy...the patron who his buying your canvass, sculpture or rug. You might have your work displayed in a gallery and hundreds of people may look at it and scoff for one personal matter of taste or another. But all you need is one buyer...one person to say "This canvass moves me and I am going to write a check for $20,000 (or whatever) and hang this thing in my living room."

          A screenplay must appeal to not one person, but millions of people. It is a MASS COMMUNICATION art from, not an individualistic art form. In fact, your goal is not to move one person so much that he will purchase it, but rather millions. That is the only way the art of screenwriting becomes financially "viable" as a medium of expression.

          Nowadays, any putz can self-publish a novel for a couple of hundred bucks with the advent of new print-on-demand technology. If he's lucky it will catch on and he will develop a following. There is minimal overhead and risk involved in that medium of expression. The same can be said with the painting, sculpting, etc.

          The screenplay, short of making a home movie, requires an incredible investment in time and capital to be realized. When you are given notes, you are being asked to make sure that your work will appeal to a large enough audience that will make your artistic expression financially viable. Every mass communication art form is incumbent to the same economic forces, e.g. music, book publishing (as distinguished from vanity press publishing mentioned above), etc. If your artistic expression is not viewed as being capable of attracting a large enough patron set to justify the expenditure, those who are ponying up the dough are going to ask you to compromise (read "make changes") until it is deemed financially viable.

          So, in conclusion, yes...screenwriting is most definitely an art...a MASS COMMUNICATION art that demands that you appeal to a mass audience to insure financial viability. If you really want to avoid any compromises, take up an art/craft that only requires one patron and one patron only to purchase your efforts, not millions.

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          • #50
            Re: In short

            Journeyman,

            While I appreciate your analogy, I'm not sure I agree with it.

            While a film must appeal to a mass audience, a screenplay just has to appeal to one person - the producer, executive, director or star who will get it made. One person still writes the check.

            It's about convincing them that you're a smart person with interesting things to say. Nothing more.

            In my experience (which is only in features, not TV), it's all about showcasing your individual voice. Trying to create something that the masses will like isn't always the best motivation. I try to stay 75% artist/25% businessman while screenwriting.

            Ultimately, you write what you write. If you don't just naturally write commercial fare, you probably never will. If you don't naturally focus on emotion and relationships between people, chances are you won't have a career. Like the ancient Buddhist koan "If you don't surf, don't start."

            John Paul
            theeastlobby.topcities.com

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            • #51
              bad notes

              what if, assuming you'll be paid for the rewrite,
              you do a rewrite making all the suggested changes
              in as good faith as you can, and then letting the
              producer see the bad result of his notes?

              (i'm not recommending this, i'm not someone
              who has been through the mill... just asking)

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              • #52
                A great post Zoditch! Thank you!

                Something I don't understand--how does it happen that someone likes your script enough to call you in for one of these sessions, but then has lots of notes about changing it? Are the notes usually about changes to the plot? Or questions about char development? Or...?

                I guess I'm such a newbie I can't even imagine yet the level of detail that comes under consideration.

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                • #53
                  It is my opinion that when getting notes by a fellow DD'er, the last person to receive coverage will get as harsh if not harsher comments than the first person. Pride and ego always come into play and most people in this community who offer to swap scripts are not strong enough to say good things about the other person's scripts when their own script was trashed by that person.

                  With this in mind, I listen to every comment the reader makes but I keep my bullshit detector on all the time.

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                  • #54
                    Re: The answer is simple:

                    "Wow! Lots of stuff to think about! Thanks!"
                    MGMkid

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                    • #55
                      Amiles: The producer will never give bad notes, but will certainly see where you failed to do his good notes.

                      In other words, instead of realizing that the notes are detrimental, the producer will tend to just feel that you can't do them correctly. It's best to nip it in the bud early, but do it in such a way as to make it seems as if they gave you the leeway to arbitrate the good and bad notes.

                      Not the situation that Bill is in, I'm afraid.

                      mushpuppy:

                      You have hit upon one of the mysteries of nature. There was a Doonesbury panel a while back that had Sid, the agent, talking on the phone. He said "It's great, babe, the script is great. It's perfect. It's wonderful. So, when can you start the rewrites?"

                      Sometimes the notes are mild. Sometimes the notes are severe. But because of the differences of perspective, the notes will always BE.

                      ZODITCH

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                      • #56
                        From the inestimable Bill Martell:

                        <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> A director and I both worked on a film that turned out REALLY crappy. He was hired to replace a fired director, I was hired to replace a fired writer. We both worked hard to make the film good - but we had little to work with. The director asked me if I was going to put my name on the film, "Hell no." "That's what I was thinking." Neither of us has our name on it... It gets better reviews than many of the films where I did take a credit. One of the video guide books calls it the best in the genre (which includes other films I've written). <!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->

                        Now, you just KNOW I'm gonna ask you what the movie was.

                        (If you don't want it touted about, you can buzz me at [email protected] . I promise I won't tell.)

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                        • #57
                          If you tell Nathan, you have to tell me! No, really, you <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> have<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> to!

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                          • #58
                            I believe the entire filmmaking process (not just the initial part, which is screenwriting) is a cautious tightrope walk where "art" is on the other side and "market" is on the other.

                            Every step on the way, the crew faces balancing between the two. Too much market research and aiming to the demographics leads to a soulless, void product. But, also too much "artistic integrity" leads into weird art pieces only about three people want to see.

                            Not only I want to write interesting and compelling stories. I want to them to be stories people would shell out their hard-earned cash to see in cinematic form. And that's a responsibility I always have to consider when writing. When a film becomes a vanity project - whether for the director, the actor or the screenwriter - things always turn sour.

                            Films are a collaborative effort. Don't like it? Buy a DV camera and film yourself in your basement. You have that liberty. But I also have the liberty of <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> not<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> to pay for it. Think about that.


                            Wizdoc

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                            • #59
                              Re: In short

                              theeastlobby,

                              No, you are wrong. You are not selling to just one person because that decision maker is acting in proxy for the assumed aggregate audience. You are appealing to that one person only if that one person can reasonably expect your story to appeal to millions more. They are signing that check based upon whether they believe enough people will plunk down the eight bucks.

                              Furthermore, nothing I stated suggests anything to do with one's voice or integrity. I'm simply pointing out that your sale is conditional upon whether the producer/studio thinks your story will appeal to enough people. If he doesn't, then expect notes. This doesn't suggest your story has to be schlock. On the contrary, many notes are given where stories are a little weak and they result in a much better script. It's not always the other way around, where strong stories are reduced to lowest-common-denominator crap. Far from it.

                              Even if you are writing a small, heartfelt little drama or romantic comedy, it still might need work to make it truly great. And a great script will appeal to more people than a good script. Get it?

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                              • #60
                                Re: In short

                                One thing I've noticed as of late: people write about themselves. When it comes to recieving feedback about their screenplay, there is no distinction between the paper and the person, so it feels like a personal attack.

                                The feedbacker is feeding back on the pages put in front of them.

                                A woman in loglines has recently put her pages up for feedback. She sat back and let the wolves have at it. And they did. When they gave her [what I felt were] good comments on her work she disputed that she had actually done these things and therefore were realistic.

                                Personally, I'm not the type of writer who writes about myself. Yes, some say write what you know, others say they write to know things. I'm of the latter. So when I recieve feedback, people are not feeding back on my life, they're feeding back on what I've written.

                                If the piece you put up for scrutiny is semi auto-biographical, there should be full disclosure.

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