Timings to specific page

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  • #31
    Re: Timings to specific page

    If you want to parse through a book full of screenwriting rules, and pick the parts that you get value from, more power to you.

    Most new writers don’t have that experience or confidence. And so they keep hearing people talk about how good this or that book/formula is, and end up thinking that’s what everyone in the industry is looking for.

    And they try to squeeze their (creative, original) story into a cookie cutter formula. And this is where it hurts their writing and their chances to stand out in a crowded marketplace.

    I don’t think these books have nothing of value to teach, I just think they should be framed very carefully, especially for new writers.

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    • #32
      Re: Timings to specific page

      +1

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      • #33
        Re: Timings to specific page

        If you go back to some of the earliest stories even before Christ, there is a general formula to storytelling that still applies today.

        The screenwriting books mentioned in this thread all have value. The people who wrote these, though may not be great writers themselves, have a perspective. Perspective is valuable, even if you disagree with it. DoneDeal is a good example of that.

        If I had to pick only 3 things to focus on in a script, here's what I'm going for and why:

        1. Premise -- premise is what's going to get people excited before page 1. Premise is most aligned with marketing. Without proper marketing, a movie cannot be successful. Without the prospect of that financial success, your chances of funding go way down. Premise is for studios and prod. companies.

        2. Structure -- this is what's going to get directors interested in your project. Some of the biggest blockbusters of all time have relied on the type of structure listed in some of the screenwriting books mentioned on this forum. When you're putting hundreds of millions into a movie, the studio wants a structure that's proven. And most directors want something they can clearly visualize beat-wise.

        3. Character -- this is what's going to get actors interested in your project.

        When you think about writing a script in this way -- satisfying your collaborators, getting them excited -- then your chances of having a long career in the business increase. I've heard some writers say, "I'm not going to compromise my vision," but making a movie is a collective vision.

        My two cents.

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        • #34
          Re: Timings to specific page

          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
          I've met dozens of writers it's hurt here. Just so many cookie cutter scripts with character beats and reversals timed at the exact same moment. Loglines that aren't good, but they fit the Snyder approved formula: someone (the protagonist) wants something (the story goal) and goes after it against great odds and/or obstacles (the antagonist and the conflict).
          I don't get this argument. If someone's writing a "cookie cutter script" instead of a fresh, original script, then yeah, it's gonna suck whether or not Act One ends on page 20 or page 35.

          Just time any movie and you notice across the board that more movies have these natural dips at minute 10, 25-30, 50-55, 80-ish than not.

          Being AWARE of structure isn't a bad thing.

          I've said this before, but when I wrote my first script a (very!) long time ago I had no clue about structure. I wrote by instinct and came up with a pretty good script, imo. Then I read Save the Cat. It said that Act One should end around page 25 or 30. I located where my first act ended -- page 44.

          It was eye-opening. So I gutted over 15 pages from Act One.

          Entered it in the Nicholl -- and made the quarterfinals, which is the top 5 percent. This would not have happened with the original misshapen first act. It's still one of my favorite scripts!!

          Books on structure are really just saying Hey, people! Be AWARE that structure in scripts exists and here's what it might look like in a script. That's it. Should anyone be a slave to structure, invoking specific page numbers, well, no. But hell yes, everyone should be aware of structure.

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          • #35
            Re: Timings to specific page

            Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
            I get it - no guru looks at a hit successful movie and says it's "wrong." My point is that if you sat down with the idea for FBDO and a STC beat sheet, you couldn't write that great movie.
            I completely agree.

            But in fairness to those authors and their books, they aren't claiming you can. They do cite several mainstream, commercial films that do fit their paradigms.

            The writer who is writing FBDO isn't looking for someone to tell them how to write it. They're writing it because they already have the vision in mind.

            If you sent FBDO - before it was made - to some script consultants, they'd ask you to change things that make it great.
            As with books, I think you need to take what a consultant says under careful consideration. Consultants, like writers, have strengths and weaknesses. One might be stronger with character development but weak on structure, or vice versa. They have biases as do we. They can just as easily, unintentionally, steer a writer in the wrong direction if they misinterpret what a writer intends.

            The writer, as the keeper of their work, must learn how to carefully consider and evaluate comments to determine for themselves whether or not to implement them. It's no different than getting notes from a writer friend. You don't automatically implement what they suggest just because they suggest it.

            It sounds like you pick and choose and have a theory that works for you. I think that's how all smart people approach it.
            I do. It changes.

            The first question in this thread was about what page to put what element on. When I'm trying to come up with a script, that just isn't a question I worry about - I don't think most professional writers do, either. What does you main character want? What's in his way? What does he do to solve it? What big moments does the story support? What surprises can you have along the way? (And for some of us: what's the theme?)

            I pulled up the STC beat sheet when I was writing my last post. I look at it and see a prescription for a really formulaic approach to movies. My characters should talk about the theme with their love interest on page 31? Ugh.
            I think he mentions THEME should be on page 5, haha, and the B story starts after the first act (page 31). Your point is taken. I agree, a writer should not FORCE story into a paradigm.

            If you want to write Jurassic Park, The Firm, or Erin Brockovich you could map those stories out using a paradigm. I've read Linda Seger, Truby (which I like), McKee, Hague, Campbell, Vogler, Trottier, and Syd Field.
            I like Hague and Vogler best. They speak to the two journeys of a protagonist, bot the INNER (character arc) and OUTER JOURNEY (plot goal). In most cases, they're all talking about three/four act structure.

            I mean, even Shonda Rhimes has a structure model for TV pilots in her MasterClass. And again, it's a guide for writing a 5 act structure for a show like Scandal or Grey's Anatomy.
            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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            • #36
              Re: Timings to specific page

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

              I'm not arguing with your method. You've never seemed dogmatic. But there are a lot of dogmatic people doling advice out, and that's really what I'm speaking to.
              I don't even know what my method is so it would be hard to argue at this point. I get what you are saying for sure. And yes if Blake was still with us, I'm sure we would have an UPDATE to the paradigm about moving faster. He was giving his advice mostly based on his 90s success, right? Things change so fast.

              I recall reading in every screenwriting book that Act I is 30 pages. And yes I agree when you are first starting out you think, oh no, I can't have a 15 page act. Then I read about book from UCLA professor that said that Act I should be 17 pages max (or something like that) and that freed me. So irony was reading a book on screenwriting opened me up more.

              But what opened me up the most was writing specs and reading specs -- and seeing what works, what didn't -- and you read specs that took chances and you're like -- oh so sometimes you can break the rules and win, eh?

              Look I haven't sold a spec yet, so I'm also thinking, wait am I doing this right? I'm also a mainstream guy, so I guess my mind also just sort of hits these type of beats. I really enjoyed the terms "fun and games" and "bad guys close in" versus dull terms like Plot Point I and Plot Point II. To me STC has some great stuff like that that just makes it easier to talk about with people. It helped me see some things I always knew. Have I read it cover to cover since I bought it in 2007, I don't think so. Have I looked at the beat sheet every now and then to get me back and focused -- sure. I also came back to done deal to do the same. Just talking about this stuff gets my writing mind focused.

              And forget about this part of the process -- I just keep hearing the note about comedy and how it's not about the funny as much as the emotion. Everyone is looking for emotional stories with some dick jokes. They aren't really looking for the 80s/90s/early 2000s pre Apatow comedies many writers grew up loving.

              I find that much more delibating than any beat sheet. Your script is hilarious, I wish it was 2002 so I could sell it, but since it's 2020, take out 25% of the jokes, pull back and add 100% more emotion.

              I need you Jeff or whoever to write a book called HOW TO WRITE FUNNY IN 2020.

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              • #37
                Re: Timings to specific page

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                I don't even know what my method is so it would be hard to argue at this point. I get what you are saying for sure. And yes if Blake was still with us, I'm sure we would have an UPDATE to the paradigm about moving faster. He was giving his advice mostly based on his 90s success, right? Things change so fast.

                I recall reading in every screenwriting book that Act I is 30 pages. And yes I agree when you are first starting out you think, oh no, I can't have a 15 page act. Then I read about book from UCLA professor that said that Act I should be 17 pages max (or something like that) and that freed me. So irony was reading a book on screenwriting opened me up more.

                But what opened me up the most was writing specs and reading specs -- and seeing what works, what didn't -- and you read specs that took chances and you're like -- oh so sometimes you can break the rules and win, eh?

                Look I haven't sold a spec yet, so I'm also thinking, wait am I doing this right? I'm also a mainstream guy, so I guess my mind also just sort of hits these type of beats. I really enjoyed the terms "fun and games" and "bad guys close in" versus dull terms like Plot Point I and Plot Point II. To me STC has some great stuff like that that just makes it easier to talk about with people. It helped me see some things I always knew. Have I read it cover to cover since I bought it in 2007, I don't think so. Have I looked at the beat sheet every now and then to get me back and focused -- sure. I also came back to done deal to do the same. Just talking about this stuff gets my writing mind focused.

                And forget about this part of the process -- I just keep hearing the note about comedy and how it's not about the funny as much as the emotion. Everyone is looking for emotional stories with some dick jokes. They aren't really looking for the 80s/90s/early 2000s pre Apatow comedies many writers grew up loving.

                I find that much more delibating than any beat sheet. Your script is hilarious, I wish it was 2002 so I could sell it, but since it's 2020, take out 25% of the jokes, pull back and add 100% more emotion.

                I need you Jeff or whoever to write a book called HOW TO WRITE FUNNY IN 2020.
                Outside of Good Boys I'm struggling to think of a comedy in, say, the last five years that was subversive and didn't feel beholden to the current moment. GOOD BOYS falls in there I think.

                The Hangover and Wedding Crashers would just not be made today. Which sucks.

                Crying about SJW/woke stuff is boring and reductive but I have a hard time not nodding along when it comes to the criticism as it pertains to comedy.

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                • #38
                  Re: Timings to specific page

                  Originally posted by figment View Post
                  I don't get this argument. If someone's writing a "cookie cutter script" instead of a fresh, original script, then yeah, it's gonna suck whether or not Act One ends on page 20 or page 35.

                  Just time any movie and you notice across the board that more movies have these natural dips at minute 10, 25-30, 50-55, 80-ish than not.
                  I agree. I've studied a lot of films. I've beat the movie out and read the scripts.

                  Being AWARE of structure isn't a bad thing.
                  You hit the nail on the head for me. A valid point.
                  I've said this before, but when I wrote my first script a (very!) long time ago I had no clue about structure. I wrote by instinct and came up with a pretty good script, imo. Then I read Save the Cat. It said that Act One should end around page 25 or 30. I located where my first act ended -- page 44.

                  It was eye-opening. So I gutted over 15 pages from Act One.

                  Entered it in the Nicholl -- and made the quarterfinals, which is the top 5 percent. This would not have happened with the original misshapen first act. It's still one of my favorite scripts!!
                  I took a professional screenwriting course and a lot of it was very good. But when we got to structuring an outline, it was absolute ****. The didn't have a clue about outline/film structure and my ACT 1 was 47 pages long.

                  When I wrote my first script all I had was passion, and idea, FD8 and The Screenwriter's Bible. It was high concept, mainstream commercial fare. I wrote it in three weeks. And I'm still proud of that, even though it was a mess; it was a kind of a good mess. It wasn't close to "done." But I did it. In three weeks.

                  I have a better idea of what "done" means now.

                  It did clock in under 120 pages because I read TSB. But I just wrote it balls out-- non-stop, no rewriting, start to finish. I sent it out, because I didn't know better. I got some reads, I even got, "not this one, send us your next one."

                  Books on structure are really just saying Hey, people! Be AWARE that structure in scripts exists and here's what it might look like in a script. That's it. Should anyone be a slave to structure, invoking specific page numbers, well, no. But hell yes, everyone should be aware of structure.
                  I agree. Read. Digest. Write. Try new approaches if you want. If they work, keep doing them. If they don't, move on to better things.
                  "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                  • #39
                    Re: Timings to specific page

                    GOOD BOYS was great. BLOCKERS I enjoyed a lot too. And Rogen was part of that too. Him, Sandler and a few others can get away with more.

                    Most of the best comedy has been on TV side and animation of course.

                    I am trying my best to bring it back in any way I can.

                    I get sad all the time that jokes are cancelled, but guns are aplenty. What a dumb world we live in.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Timings to specific page

                      Screenwriting method books are like dieting fad books. But not all writers are obese.
                      Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                      "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                      • #41
                        Re: Timings to specific page

                        Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                        Screenwriting method books are like dieting fad books. But not all writers are obese.
                        This analogy couldn't be more tortured if it were standing on a box in Abu Ghraib.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Timings to specific page

                          Originally posted by Satriales View Post
                          This analogy couldnt be more tortured if it were standing on a box in Abu Ghraib.
                          Fair enough, fatty.
                          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                          • #43
                            Re: Timings to specific page

                            Those books, to me, do more harm than good. They will teach you to write screenplay widgets rather than something original.

                            I've always found the thriving existence of screenplay method books to be curious. I can't think of an analog in any other art form. In fine art, it would be like a group of unsuccessful painters telling you exactly how big a canvas should be and which quadrant needs to include the color blue.

                            Of course it's important to know the basic technical components of a screenplay, but anything beyond that can easily be learned by watching actual movies.

                            Jean-Luc Godard said it best, and I'm paraphrasing here - A movie should have a beginning, middle, and end, but not necessarily in that order.

                            I'm sure someone is going to say specs are different and need to conform to staid rules because they don't have the weight of a known quantity behind them. Let me pre-empt that argument by saying there are thousands of specs out there. You could try to stand out by writing a widget that is similar to most, or paint outside the lines a little bit.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Timings to specific page

                              ^ Agreed.

                              If one has not the wit to work it out by watching movies, then some how-to books probably won't help to any significant degree.
                              Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                              "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                              • #45
                                Re: Timings to specific page

                                Originally posted by Crayon View Post
                                Fair enough, fatty.
                                What? 😆

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