Choosing a structure

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  • #31
    Re: Choosing a structure

    Right, but every story idea starts somewhere. What's the difference between saying "I want to tell a story about drug dealers" and "I want to write something that includes a lot of flashbacks" if you they both lead you to a fully-developed story in the end?

    Plenty of excellent scripts have inspiration stories that start with something like, "I was always driving past this gazebo on my way home, and I started to wonder what kind of story I could tell that would include that gazebo." They didn't have a story that demanded a gazebo; they saw a gazebo that inspired a story. Structure can work the same way.

    It doesn't have to, of course, and it's not like I'm telling everyone to pick a structure or mechanic first and go from there. But it can be a source of inspiration if you're so inclined.

    I guess I'm just saying it's a chicken/egg thing. In the end you need a fully-developed story that also makes sense, which means your structure should suit your story. Which one you choose first doesn't really matter as long as you have both.

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    • #32
      Re: Choosing a structure

      Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
      The point is, the nature of the story itself should dictate the manner of its telling, and thus its structure. ...

      But picking the structure and then applying to a story that you haven't even fully figured out just seems strange -- almost like choosing characters to include in a story where you haven't even figured out what's going on in the story. It's like saying -- I'm not exactly sure what the story is yet, but I know before diving into it that I want a crazy, self-absorbed Mom in there somewhere. Oh, and a five-act structure where the beginning and the ending mirror one another. Why? Who? What?

      Figure out what the story is. Then as that comes into focus, the structure will likewise come into focus.
      So, in other words, keep the horse in front of the cart?

      I don't know how many times I've read writer interviews where the writer says something like ... "the story dictated that this be a novel rather than a screenplay." That would be a more extreme form of letting the story dictate the structure, but it's happened.

      And, please Mr. Stevens, write a book on writing. I'm already waiting in line to buy it.
      Last edited by Centos; 05-25-2017, 01:49 PM.
      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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      • #33
        Re: Choosing a structure

        Originally posted by omjs View Post
        Plenty of excellent scripts have inspiration stories that start with something like, "I was always driving past this gazebo on my way home, and I started to wonder what kind of story I could tell that would include that gazebo." They didn't have a story that demanded a gazebo; they saw a gazebo that inspired a story. Structure can work the same way.
        A gezebo is not the type of structure referred to in this thread. (ha. ha. ha.)

        An outline and/or a treatment give an excellent overview perspective of a story and all its parts before setting proverbial "pen to paper.-
        “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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        • #34
          Re: Choosing a structure

          Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
          An outline and/or a treatment give an excellent overview perspective of a story and all its parts before setting proverbial “pen to paper.”
          I look at it this way ... if you have a scene in your head that your excited about ... just write it out, even before you know if it will fit into any kind of story. That's inspiration and it's not like you have to pay by the word or that you have a limit on how many you can use in your lifetime. It may not (probably won't) go anywhere, but it may start you thinking about a story to wrap around it. If nothing else you get practice actually writing -- and that's a good thing.

          I know folks work differently, but I also know that if I (personally) had to outline and write treatments for stories before actually putting "pen to paper," I would never get anything written. The very thought bores me to tears.
          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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          • #35
            Re: Choosing a structure

            Originally posted by Centos View Post
            I look at it this way ... if you have a scene in your head that you're excited about ... just write it out, even before you know if it will fit into any kind of story. That's inspiration and it's not like you have to pay by the word or that you have a limit on how many you can use in your lifetime. It may not (probably won't) go anywhere, but it may start you thinking about a story to wrap around it. If nothing else you get practice actually writing -- and that's a good thing.

            I know folks work differently, but I also know that if I (personally) had to outline and write treatments for stories before actually putting "pen to paper," I would never get anything written. The very thought bores me to tears.
            My earlier comment was not to say that I never also write a scene (or even several) before I know whether or not it (or they) will fit into a screen story. Many such as those have gone on to be the germ for a short story.

            For me personally, the screen story process starts with an all-at-once idea which has a satisfying conclusion, middle, and beginning. From that springs forth a “hook” and myriad layers of causes and effects, all of which necessitate research and index cards, which then lead me to create an outline to lay order to inspiration.
            Last edited by Clint Hill; 05-26-2017, 05:02 AM. Reason: grammar
            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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            • #36
              Re: Choosing a structure

              Originally posted by omjs View Post
              Right, but every story idea starts somewhere. What's the difference between saying "I want to tell a story about drug dealers" and "I want to write something that includes a lot of flashbacks" if you they both lead you to a fully-developed story in the end?

              Plenty of excellent scripts have inspiration stories that start with something like, "I was always driving past this gazebo on my way home, and I started to wonder what kind of story I could tell that would include that gazebo." They didn't have a story that demanded a gazebo; they saw a gazebo that inspired a story. Structure can work the same way.

              It doesn't have to, of course, and it's not like I'm telling everyone to pick a structure or mechanic first and go from there. But it can be a source of inspiration if you're so inclined.

              I guess I'm just saying it's a chicken/egg thing. In the end you need a fully-developed story that also makes sense, which means your structure should suit your story. Which one you choose first doesn't really matter as long as you have both.

              I have countless images and bits of business and odd characters and lines of dialogue and what-have-you, and opening scenes, none of which constitute stories. They are what they are.

              If you've been in this business long enough you'll hear this phrase after awhile -- "It's not a movie." It's something that you generally hear after you tell someone some idea you have and you're really enthusiastic about it, and you tell it to someone in the business and they get this look and then they say -- "I don't know. It's not a movie."

              And usually, they're right. Because the world is full of bit's of business and characters and lines and all the rest and also it's full of ideas and most of them don't add to much and most of them aren't movies. That is, they just don't have enough stuff in them or enough of the right stuff in them to make a movie.

              And part of being a screenwriter is learning to figure out what a good idea is and how to tune your antenna to detect it when it's drifting by inside your head (or sometimes outside when you're hearing things and watching things and reading things). Oh, hey -- that's a good idea. That's a movie.

              And you'd be amazed how many times people's antennae go up and they think that something is a good idea, that they think that something is a movie but all you have to do is dig into a little bit to realize that there's really nothing there. Maybe it's just a good opening for a movie that then goes nowhere. So it sounds like a premise but it's just a good teaser that's about nothing and leads nowhere.

              So there's really a skill involved in getting from those little bits and pieces into a real story and generally there has to be some sort of order to the process. And honestly, I just can't see how deciding on a structure early in the process can serve any useful purpose.

              Seriously, until you know what the overall layout of the story is -- that is, how the various characters are going to move through the dramatic landscape of the story, how can you even begin to address the question of the structure?

              NMS

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              • #37
                Re: Choosing a structure

                Originally posted by omjs View Post
                Right, but every story idea starts somewhere. What's the difference between saying "I want to tell a story about drug dealers" and "I want to write something that includes a lot of flashbacks" if you they both lead you to a fully-developed story in the end?
                I get what omjs is saying. Last year I purposely wanted to write something in a contained environment -- I had that in my mind first, and eventually found the characters and story that fit with that. The script turned out pretty good, too. Not saying it would work all the time, because I don't think you can consistently dictate your own creativity -- creativity has to be flexible. But the spark of wanting to write something lower budget/contained led me to writing it.

                Originally posted by Centos View Post
                And, please Mr. Stevens, write a book on writing. I'm already waiting in line to buy it.
                I would too. Several copies. Even if he just took his posts from this site and stuck them in a book, I'd buy that.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Choosing a structure

                  Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
                  Seriously, until you know what the overall layout of the story is -- that is, how the various characters are going to move through the dramatic landscape of the story, how can you even begin to address the question of the structure?

                  NMS
                  Take the most recent two big films, ALIEN: COVENANT and GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY 2.0; there's a consistency in their execution, it's uncanny how similar they are in their execution.

                  If it was wholly as organic as you're suggesting, we'd see a lot more diversity in the execution; there's a ton of crafting going on.

                  The structure can be used to draw out the dramatic landscape of the story, not unlike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6mSdlfpYLU
                  Story Structure 1
                  Story Structure 2
                  Story Structure 3

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                  • #39
                    Re: Choosing a structure

                    Originally posted by Timmy View Post
                    Take the most recent two big films, ALIEN: COVENANT and GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY 2.0; there's a consistency in their execution, it's uncanny how similar they are in their execution.

                    If it was wholly as organic as you're suggesting, we'd see a lot more diversity in the execution; there's a ton of crafting going on.

                    The structure can be used to draw out the dramatic landscape of the story, not unlike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6mSdlfpYLU
                    Alas, you seem to be completely misunderstanding what I am saying, if what you think I am saying is that you simply start with the characters and the situation and that the structure than arises magically or organically out of their "natural interplay."

                    Nothing could be further from what I am saying.

                    I just recently watched Disney's Moana, which I really liked and which is as precisely structured and follows a particular structure that Disney and Pixar has crafted and has used with great success for the past thirty years. You can see all of the beats, how the songs are used and integrated, how the various characters are used to reflect the progatonist's internal conflicts.

                    It's all really, really well done and all right on point in terms of an established, tried-and-true structure.

                    So I'm the last person to say that you should not pay attention to structure. All I'm saying is that until you have some sense of what the story is, you can't know what the structure is going to be.

                    Even when Disney/Pixar sets out to make an animated movie, the structure doesn't necessarily follow. Inside Out, for instance, doesn't have the same story, nor the same structure as Moana.

                    The fine-grain structure of a story is going to be dictated by the story itself.

                    When you understand what story you're trying to tell then you are in a position to understand what sort of structure is appropriate for the telling of that story. As you begin to understand how the story lays out, ideally you will begin to see how it lays out structurally. You will no longer see it as bits of scenes and moments and characters but will start to see it as a unified whole, you will start to see the entire "being" of the story -- and that means you start to see the skeleton beneath -- the structure on which all of those other pieces come together.

                    And only then will you start to see the shape of you story, what really goes where, what belongs, how that scene or moment that you really loved actually doesn't fit (and I've had a moment that I've been struggling to get into a movie for years and have never been able to find a place for) and all the rest.

                    That is what I am talking about when I'm talking about structure following story.

                    I hope that I've made my point more clearly.

                    NMS

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                    • #40
                      Re: Choosing a structure

                      Originally posted by omjs View Post
                      Right, but every story idea starts somewhere. What's the difference between saying "I want to tell a story about drug dealers" and "I want to write something that includes a lot of flashbacks" if you they both lead you to a fully-developed story in the end?
                      But you're begging the question.

                      DOES starting with a structure lead to a fully-developed story?

                      Is that an effective and efficient way to get there?

                      The more experienced I get, the less I think it is. I mean, sure, there's a million-monkeys-on-a-million-typewriters thing going on, there are all sorts of methods you can take to writing a great screenplay, and I'm hesitant to say that anybody else's way is wrong.

                      But I will say that the writers I admire who talk about this sort of stuff largely don't. I know of one pro who uses a structure-first approach (Tess Morris has spoken about it on Scriptnotes).

                      I think there's a lot of emphasis among amateurs because there's a lot of emphasis on structure in books, and there's a lot of emphasis on structure in books because structure is teachable. "Here, follow these steps, and your screenplay will work."

                      It's not true, but it sounds nice.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Choosing a structure

                        i've researched this further, not farther, and being that the base of 'structure' is 'crust' from the latin word 'tu cruts er' circa bddpro 110 pages or less, it seems clear to me that structure is basically a recipe or vision or three-step program told from the flour and water mixture, or yeast, cold butter if making biscuit dough, etc, things like that, and heat, the right heat, which when all put together will hold the contents of pizza toppings or will be the outside of a piece of bread which no one really likes to eat but we eat it, but anyway, and it also, if is old and dried out, makes good croutons. everybody likes croutons. little garlic and olive oil. herbs. got you some structure. try to pick them off your date's salad without permission and watch the whole evening begin to fall apart. no good story to tell the next day. i just don't see what is complicated about the whole thing.
                        Last edited by AnconRanger; 05-26-2017, 05:49 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Choosing a structure

                          Originally posted by AnconRanger View Post
                          i've researched this further, not farther, and being that the base of 'structure' is 'crust' from the latin word 'tu cruts er' circa bddpro 110 pages or less, it seems clear to me that structure is basically a recipe or vision or three-step program told from the flour and water mixture, or yeast, cold butter if making biscuit dough, etc, things like that, and heat, the right heat, which when all put together will hold the contents of pizza toppings or will be the outside of a piece of bread which no one really likes to eat but we eat it, but anyway, and it also, if is old and dried out, makes good croutons. everybody likes croutons. little garlic and olive oil. herbs. got you some structure. try to pick them off your date's salad without permission and watch the whole evening begin to fall apart. no good story to tell the next day. i just don't see what is complicated about the whole thing.
                          The structure must help facilitate an enjoyable and coherent story, a thing which, apparently, is no easy task. Otherwise, a plethora of screenwriters would have Oscars to show off on their mantels (or use as doorstops).
                          “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Choosing a structure

                            Structure is one of those things that you are doing whether you are conscious of it or not. As you write you are trying to put a logical progression of scenes together that tell a story. You comb over the material and you identify gaps in logic, you try to bridge those gaps, you cut scenes, you regenerate scenes that take your second half of act 2 in a new direction. You are structuring a screenplay whether you are conscious of it or not. Are you a structure snob? That is the question, cause you need to be. You need to be picky, and constantly unsatisfied, always looking for more and better. Someone with that kind of mindset has a much better chance to write something of quality then someone who really had no real taste for structure. How do you establish a man in a troubled marriage thinking about killing his wife. What is the structure for that important plot point? There's only about a million ways to go with it. Which way have you uncovered?

                            Screenwriting is to Hollywood what open source code is to web building. Things have been done, lots of stuff has been completed long before you ever got into this. You want to open a message board? Buy a domain and download a free message board platform. You want to put a blackjack game on your site? No problem, download a free blackjack game on your site. Now, a talented programmer can take open source code and personalize it, modify it, make it look sexier, work sleeker. add bonus features to it.

                            Screenplays in any genre are open source code for screenwriters. We've all seen the beats of many love stories, many revenge stories, many maturation stories. How can you take those open source code beats that are in any genre and make them your own. Cause that's what you have to do, if you want your script laying on top of Kenny Lonergan's next dramatic epic then you have to be able to do that.

                            Problem is, that's like asking an average swimmer to all of a sudden start doing the backstroke in the middle of their trek across the English channel. An average swimmer will be doing all they can just to keep their head above water. Screenwriting is actually more dangerous than water though. Drowning is a very physical act, so you will throw in the towel and beg for help immediately. Screenwriting is a psychological act, which means not only will you never throw in the towel, you will convince yourself that you know what you are doing.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Choosing a structure

                              Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
                              My earlier comment was not to say that I never also write a scene (or even several) before I know whether or not it (or they) will fit into a screen story. Many such as those have gone on to be the germ for a short story.

                              For me personally, the screen story process starts with an all-at-once idea which has a satisfying conclusion, middle, and beginning. From that springs forth a “hook” and myriad layers of causes and effects, all of which necessitate research and index cards, which then lead me to create an outline to lay order to inspiration.
                              For longer stories, I usually just let them stew in my head for a few days, while I work out the plot, etc. (at least that's the idea) -- but unfortunately the poor, misshapen things usually don't make it, almost always they fall into the darkened abyss of my empty skull and are never heard from again. So, almost always, just short crap for me. Stuff that doesn't require thought -- just a few grunts and word processor.
                              STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Choosing a structure

                                Originally posted by TigerFang View Post
                                The structure must help facilitate an enjoyable and coherent story, a thing which, apparently, is no easy task. Otherwise, a plethora of screenwriters would have Oscars to show off on their mantels (or use as doorstops).
                                I wouldn't necessarily blame structure (facilitating or facilitated) for bad stories. A lot of stories simply aren't any good -- and even the best structure wouldn't have helped.
                                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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