Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

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  • Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

    I am not a Twitter person but sometimes I check out the handles from people in the industry to see what's doing, and I noticed the other day that manager / producer John Zaozirny (Bellevue) is considering leaving Twitter over a controversial post he made back in March

    https://twitter.com/johnzaozirny/sta...89012717776904

    which kind of blew up (in a bad way) and drew the ire of Craig Mazin, who will supposedly discuss this situation on a forthcoming episode of Scriptnotes (at least that's the way Zaozirny makes it sound).

    My initial thought was, eh, Craig's kind of a dick sometimes. Maybe he got carried away.

    And then I read the comments that started the whole thing--

    Basically Zaozirny said that if a writer of an original spec engages a producer, even on a casual level, regarding development of a script (ie. notes), even if there's no option or shopping agreement, even if the writer doesn't use the notes and never even completes a draft for that producer, the writer has a legal responsibility to disclose the relationship in any future option or sale contracts as a chain-of-title liability, which could damage the value of the spec and/or scare off any buyers.

    Zaozirny says that writers should hire a lawyer to draft paperwork before engaging a producer on any level (which just doesn't seem realistic).

    He was called out in the replies by several entertainment attorneys (and Mazin) for giving wrong-headed advice.

    Besides loving a good Hollywood Twitter fight, I have a great deal of interest in this topic as I am currently right in the middle of this exact situation (notes + revisions w/o a contract).

  • #2
    Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

    I saw a fight that was a week ago and Mazin was responding to slugline day of time advice from manager. Are you sure Craig is talking about a March post? Everything I saw was about the use of LATER and MOMENTS LATER and CONTINUOUS in sluglines. Manager had an opionion and CM went full CM.

    https://twitter.com/johnzaozirny/sta...387257856?s=20

    From my perspective, I thought John was giving good advice overall but I think Craig just gets mad at any experts who aren't writers themselves. And that I get. But also from us on the outside, well if a manager selling stuff says this is how it works, that's not bad advice either. I mean maybe CM gets away with more **** than me or you can in 2020. So that's weird. Also it was so minor --sluglines -- that I was generallly confused.

    As for this specific thing -- about producers -- I always assumed if you brought them in to your OWN idea and they helped you -- they might fight for credit --- but it's yours -- the problem area is when a producer pitches you THEIR IDEA and you're working for two years and you can't even take the idea with you.

    But need people with more experience to talk about that...

    Also I still have not figured out how managers as producers work. I know this is Craig's main problem with them -- I'd love to understand the good/bad with that. I feel most managers are usually trying to be producers on their clients projects and I can sometimes see the downside, but also to me doesn't that mean he/she is also invested in getting this made so they get paid?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

      The slugline post was the most recent one, but I guess Mazin has a history with this guy going back to that March thing (not sure if CM does this with other managers or just hates this guy, I'm too lazy to scroll thru his whole timeline).

      But when someone like Mazin takes personal shots at someone

      https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/1292248848803356672

      who's posting in his capacity as the head of a company (ie. not a bs/personal account) it can damage the brand, which is why JZ is thinking of stepping away.

      https://twitter.com/johnzaozirny/sta...04162603442176

      But all that drama takes a backseat to the chain-of-title issue for me.

      No one ever gives good legal advice except for "talk to a lawyer", which is just not realistic to people with no money.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

        Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
        I am not a Twitter person but sometimes I check out the handles from people in the industry to see what's doing, and I noticed the other day that manager / producer John Zaozirny (Bellevue) is considering leaving Twitter over a controversial post he made back in March

        https://twitter.com/johnzaozirny/sta...89012717776904

        which kind of blew up (in a bad way) and drew the ire of Craig Mazin, who will supposedly discuss this situation on a forthcoming episode of Scriptnotes (at least that's the way Zaozirny makes it sound).

        My initial thought was, eh, Craig's kind of a dick sometimes. Maybe he got carried away.

        And then I read the comments that started the whole thing--

        Basically Zaozirny said that if a writer of an original spec engages a producer, even on a casual level, regarding development of a script (ie. notes), even if there's no option or shopping agreement, even if the writer doesn't use the notes and never even completes a draft for that producer, the writer has a legal responsibility to disclose the relationship in any future option or sale contracts as a chain-of-title liability, which could damage the value of the spec and/or scare off any buyers.
        I'm not an attorney, but I don't think this is entirely accurate. I'm pretty sure the producer would have to show that there was some kind of agreement to develop together.

        The Chain of Title has to do with legal documents. If this were the case, any writer giving notes could say that the originator "engaged" them and that their notes add them to the COT-- copyright just doesn't work that way.

        Zaozirny says that writers should hire a lawyer to draft paperwork before engaging a producer on any level (which just doesn't seem realistic).

        He was called out in the replies by several entertainment attorneys (and Mazin) for giving wrong-headed advice.
        Can you provide the link to this part? Because I think my understanding is correct. I'd like to see what the ETs and CM had to say.

        Besides loving a good Hollywood Twitter fight, I have a great deal of interest in this topic as I am currently right in the middle of this exact situation (notes + revisions w/o a contract).
        I'm not sure what legal ground a producer really has without a contract. They have to PROVE there is a legally binding agreement somewhere, somehow. Giving notes isn't the same as writing a script, so there's no claim to copyright, nor does it mean they have stake in the game.

        Unless there's a "write-for-hire" agreement somewhere?

        Chain of Title has to do with contracts as far as I can tell. Meaning someone options it, and there is no language specifying that the writer maintains all rights to original, rewrites by the writer and rewrites by other writers. And if the option expires, and is never extended or exercised, then that breaks that part of the chain.

        This may help explain Chain of Title.

        https://firemark.com/2012/06/15/chai...e-why-matters/

        If you have an option agreement on the table, I would strongly suggest that you protect yourself with a clause that states if the option is never exercised that all rights for the original screenplay, all rewrites by creator/seller and all rewrites authored by OTHER writers revert automatically back to creator/seller and without any encumbrances.
        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

          Didn't John Zaozirny start his career off as a writer?
          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

            Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
            Can you provide the link to this part? Because I think my understanding is correct. I'd like to see what the ETs and CM had to say.
            It's in this Twitter thread I posted in my first post

            https://twitter.com/johnzaozirny/sta...89012717776904

            It's really long, but worth reading. The comments (including the replies to the replies) come from writers, lawyers, Alec Berg, Mazin, Laurie Donahue and others.

            JZ was saying that although notes do not constitute ownership or writing credit, the fact that a producer had any input at all on a script will complicate future negotiations.

            But then he started backtracking, and saying 'I'm not a lawyer', etc. It's pretty uncomfortable.

            As far as how this relates to my current situation, it was my understanding that the producer I'm working with is putting himself at a disadvantage by not signing an option.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

              Also, to be fair, I'm sure this is all coming from a good place.

              I'm sure John Zaozirny has seen many writers get threatened with lawsuits by scuzzy producers. But I don't think those lawsuits would hold up in court. It's just that no one wants to have to pay a lawyer to find out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                Also, to be fair, I'm sure this is all coming from a good place.

                I'm sure John Zaozirny has seen many writers get threatened with lawsuits by scuzzy producers. But I don't think those lawsuits would hold up in court. It's just that no one wants to have to pay a lawyer to find out.
                Yeah, I really like John Z. He offers a lot of good advice. And, tbf, he probably has had clients that may have unknowingly agreed to a work for hire without realizing it. Contracts can be really tricky. You definitely need a lawyer to help decipher them.

                I read the first thread, but didn't see comments, except one, from Craig. I think Craig can be overly brutal and doesn't consider what his "following" can do to someone's career. John is speaking from his experience. and we have all been wrong before. Even Craig.

                I have a ton of respect for Craig's accomplishments and think he helps a lot of writers, but I was never on the same page with his disputing the validity of other writers who have "how to" books on the shelf without ever having read them. If they help a writer, great. If they don't, move on.
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                  Yeah, Craig has kind of weaponized his Twitter feed to a point... Regardless of one's beliefs, there has to be a better use of one's time.

                  But if there are real world examples of writers getting hung up on contracts because of some general notes they got once, I want to hear about it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                    I only read twitter now. No postings.

                    But there are like 100 active writers and I can think of 10 or so, that you've heard of or friends with people you heard of, that just hate Craig. So it's not just CM going after John. It's worse to me -- writers attacking other writers. It was worse during WGA board stuff which I still don't understand.

                    I don't think CM is always right, but it must be that I'm also an east coast Jew in that I agree with him 99% of the time. So this time I didn't think what John Z said was wrong, but then Craig pointed it out and I said, yeah that's more right. But CM could have said it in a nicer way. But that is not his style.

                    I honestly think Craig is coming from a good place. The manager seems to be too.

                    But I'm telling you, there are some real jerk writers on twitter who I agree with politically but also are ready to cancel anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%.

                    So always be on the lookout for that stuff.

                    There is a writer some of us know helping other writers on twitter and he's doing a good thing in my eyes and he got attacked for it. And of course fought back which I would not advise as it never ends. Everyone just gets upset.

                    I would prefer Craig not attack John Z -- but say it in a nice way -- I disagree with what you said, here is why.

                    I think the issue is what I would call "our side" attacks each other with the same level we get mad at the GOP for doing real harm.

                    So Craig tone on twitter is the same if he's attacking Ted Cruz or John Z. And that is my issue with what I call "our side."

                    We agree on 99% of things that are important and then have brutal fights about sluglines. It makes me sad honestly.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                      Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                      Yeah, Craig has kind of weaponized his Twitter feed to a point... Regardless of one's beliefs, there has to be a better use of one's time.

                      But if there are real world examples of writers getting hung up on contracts because of some general notes they got once, I want to hear about it.
                      I wish I knew. I'm sure if a thing is a hit, producers will try to claim ownership. I know we had a script go out with a big agency and a manager who we talked to for a week and almost signed with (but didn't) -- somehow got to be producer with terrorities to appease him. Didn't help us. Didn't sell. Very annoying thinking about it years later.

                      So I don't know what the law is -- but small town. So sometimes they are just looking out for their friends.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                        Originally posted by Bono View Post
                        I wish I knew. I'm sure if a thing is a hit, producers will try to claim ownership. I know we had a script go out with a big agency and a manager who we talked to for a week and almost signed with (but didn't) -- somehow got to be producer with terrorities to appease him. Didn't help us. Didn't sell. Very annoying thinking about it years later.

                        So I don't know what the law is -- but small town. So sometimes they are just looking out for their friends.
                        What's written in the contract/document is what becomes at issue.

                        You want a clearly written contract that distinguishes the rights and that there are no additional clauses on another document that negates them. You do not want to sign a document, unless you are agreeing to that, that states you are a write for hire and/or that any rewrites done during the option period remain with the producer.

                        You want to have those rights remain with you as creator/seller if the option expires or if they neglect to exercise the option.
                        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                          Contracts are one thing -- but often working with a producer involves zero paperwork. That is OP's issue he's trying to figure out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            Contracts are one thing -- but often working with a producer involves zero paperwork. That is OP's issue he's trying to figure out.

                            OP? kintnerboy can read you know and he's right here.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Developement Notes and Chain-Of-Title

                              Callback to my line? Nice NOT OP.

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