Loving your character too much

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  • #31
    Re: Loving your character too much

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    This is a lot of flowery language that’s avoiding the issues to me. You are the creator of the character and the world. It’s not season 3 of a TV show. You decide who a character is and what they do. And what they do is the story.

    I still do not understand what the problem is. Write this half asleep and finish the first draft. This over thinking for sure won’t lead to anything.
    I suspect the reason for the confusion is that the OP is attached to this character because they "discovered" the character in their writing, so to them, the character is a real person. This approach has positive and negatives - the positive is that the character feels authentic; the negative is that it likely won't make for the best story.

    But asking the OP to "decide" on character traits has positives and negatives too. The positive is that it's generally a stronger story choice, but the character will feel like a puppet.

    What I'm getting at is, the OP's challenge is to find a way to keep the character organic as they are doing now, while at the same time finding a way to make the character organically do something that best serves the story. Which, in the case of murdering someone, seems like the last thing the character would ordinarily do.

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    • #32
      Re: Loving your character too much

      I hear you n__squared and sc111111111111111 but my creative side does not think this way. Or if I do I don't express it like this.

      I know for sure all writers are mostly unique creatures and that's why sometimes one writer will get rid of 10 pages w/o blinking and the other person will debate for 6 months over whether to change 1 word.

      This thread actually explains so much on why when people pitch ideas to each other how we all see a different movie. The best pitches are the ones where you can get the most people to see the same movie you see.

      But I am firmly in the camp that all this thinking for me happens when I'm in the shower, walking around or 3 years before I write the script -- but when you're in the machine and writing -- just pick one way and finish the script. You can always change it.

      For instance I was just working on something where a guy lost his wife he's all sad and depressed and then I made a joke to a buddy "what if he's happy she's dead?" and I thought about it for days -- still think it's funny -- but it wasn't the right beat for the show. But going the other way helped me discover that the first way I went was correct. And also gave me another idea to write later.

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      • #33
        Re: Loving your character too much

        Here's the gist:

        -I do discover things about my characters as I go along. I would hope we all do. For me, that's one of the most exciting parts of writing. I literally just gave my main character a voice in her head the other day--did not know it was going to be there and now I'm tickled pink about it (it will only pop up very infrequently but it's a convenient and funny gimmick for this particular story).

        -The problem with my "bad guy," is that as I flesh him out, I realize he adds a strong emotional component to the story. This means I have to be careful what I do with him. Not because I personally like him, but because what happens to him can make or break the emotional impact. I already know how he dies, and I'm happy with that, but the events leading up to that are trickier. The handful of films or books we remember out of the absolutely countless ones we see are the ones that make a lasting emotional impact, IMO. And that's what I'm going for.

        For instance, in LOTR, Boromir is not a bad guy, but he turns violent and betrays the Fellowship. Dramatically speaking, for justice to be served and for him to die is really the only way to go. But because he repents at the end, the death is beautiful and one of the trilogy's most memorable scenes, IMO. It's not the kind of death we cheer for, it's the kind we feel sad about but accept that it had to happen. Those conflicting emotions--loving a character while hating what they do-are responsible for some of the best cinematic experiences. But there's only so much wiggle room as to how evil a character can become and still be "forgiven" by the audience.

        (as soon as I wrote that, I thought of Breaking Bad, but the thing is, I never really liked the guy to begin with).

        Anyway, like I said, I'm wrapping it up soon and I will know what to do once I have the finished product in my hand and a larger perspective. It's also just a major plot issue that I still have to work out, and once I find where this character's piece of the puzzle fits in, that will tell me a lot.

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        • #34
          Re: Loving your character too much

          Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
          Here's the gist:

          -I do discover things about my characters as I go along. I would hope we all do. For me, that's one of the most exciting parts of writing. I literally just gave my main character a voice in her head the other day--did not know it was going to be there and now I'm tickled pink about it (it will only pop up very infrequently but it's a convenient and funny gimmick for this particular story).

          -The problem with my "bad guy," is that as I flesh him out, I realize he adds a strong emotional component to the story. This means I have to be careful what I do with him. Not because I personally like him, but because what happens to him can make or break the emotional impact. I already know how he dies, and I'm happy with that, but the events leading up to that are trickier. The handful of films or books we remember out of the absolutely countless ones we see are the ones that make a lasting emotional impact, IMO. And that's what I'm going for.

          For instance, in LOTR, Boromir is not a bad guy, but he turns violent and betrays the Fellowship. Dramatically speaking, for justice to be served and for him to die is really the only way to go. But because he repents at the end, the death is beautiful and one of the trilogy's most memorable scenes, IMO. It's not the kind of death we cheer for, it's the kind we feel sad about but accept that it had to happen. Those conflicting emotions--loving a character while hating what they do-are responsible for some of the best cinematic experiences. But there's only so much wiggle room as to how evil a character can become and still be "forgiven" by the audience.

          (as soon as I wrote that, I thought of Breaking Bad, but the thing is, I never really liked the guy to begin with).

          Anyway, like I said, I'm wrapping it up soon and I will know what to do once I have the finished product in my hand and a larger perspective. It's also just a major plot issue that I still have to work out, and once I find where this character's piece of the puzzle fits in, that will tell me a lot.
          Gotcha, this helps a lot. This is just a suggestion so take it for what it is:

          1) You have a character that you have a deep intuitive connection with. The character is a real person to you; and you know exactly how this character will RESPOND in any given situation.

          2) Figure out what is this character's most terrible pain, the worst thing that could happen to them, their innermost deepest nightmare. Also figure out the character's greatest fantasy, their greatest hopes and dreams.

          3) Decide on the OUTCOME, the action you need them to perform: murder someone, go skydiving, break up with their ex, etc.

          4) Ask yourself, what EVENT could I put this character through that, given their authentic RESPONSE, will produce the OUTCOME I need for them? Likely, though not always, the event will force the character to experience their greatest pain or greatest fantasies.

          As an example:

          * I need my character to murder someone.
          * But the last thing my character would ever do is murder someone.
          * My character's greatest fear is to be rejected by those they deeply love.
          * So a potential event that would force my character to murder someone is catching their spouse of 40 years in the arms of the person they hate most, their greatest rival, the person that utterly humiliated them in high school which emotionally led to rejection after rejection their entire life until they finally met their spouse who was the one person to fully accept them and promised to love them forever.

          The neat thing is that this approach allows you to create a strong story while also maintaining a character that is also real and authentic.

          I hope that helps!
          Last edited by nguyensquared; 09-12-2019, 06:50 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: Loving your character too much

            @nguyensquared: Many thanks for the input and you make some very good points. The one thing though: I DON'T know yet what this character would and wouldn't do. I'm discovering that as I go along.

            BUT: the thing I'm taking away from this, besides character and plot issues, which are common, is that for the FIRST time in all my years of writing, I'm thinking: how do I create the most powerful and lasting emotional impact for the reader /viewer?

            I remember I wrote this one script a few years back, and someone told me, perhaps the manager I had for like 5 minutes, that audiences would not be rooting for the romantic interest I chose but rather for the other guy in the story, the guy I dismissed in my script. I think at the time I was more interested in exhibiting my witty / sarcastic repartee / sexual tension chops and that it never occurred to me to understand the emotional impact--or in this case, lack of--of my choices.

            So that's what I'm trying to do here. I want a massive, kick-me-in-the-gut emotional punch. And for that, I need to figure out how far I can go and what the limits are. I do believe that here is such a thing as a point of no return. I mean hell, we all spend a lifetime figuring that out with the people in our lives. We all have a breaking point, beyond which there is no going back. With this character, I need to get in juuuuust before that limit. Beyond redemption, but still within the forgiveness zone.

            And yeah, I'm probably overthinking it, but I find the thinking interesting.

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            • #36
              Re: Loving your character too much

              Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
              how do I create the most powerful and lasting emotional impact for the reader /viewer?
              Making something that is powerful and meaningful to you also matter to the reader in the same way is a tough skill.

              When I did consults with writer friends, instead of giving feedback on their scripts, I'd ask a lot of questions to understand the story and characters that were playing inside their heads and hearts as they wrote it. Invariably, the story and characters that were inside of them were amazing - they just weren't able to get the reader to experience the same thing. How you do it is a much longer conversation, as you might imagine, but if I had to give a short answer, I'd say:

              1) Writing with clarity - the reader needs to understand what's happening, why it's happening, and why they should care

              2) Writing in strong compelling conflict

              Good luck!
              Last edited by nguyensquared; 09-13-2019, 07:15 AM.

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              • #37
                Re: Loving your character too much

                Thanks nguyensquared and everyone else!

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                • #38
                  Re: Loving your character too much

                  I think I just figured it out. Pretty psyched. You gotta love this writing thing, and how you discover things as you go along and get super excited when it all seems to come together all of a sudden!

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                  • #39
                    Re: Loving your character too much

                    I agree with the rest of the gang on how to approach this.

                    One thing I find interesting in my stuff (maybe this will be helpful as you move forward) is that the scripts of mine that hit people the most EMOTIONALLY were the 2 scripts where I open on characters who WE DON'T LIKE.

                    I open and we HATE these characters. Then I'm getting notes back like "lots of heart" "Is this a true story?" etc.

                    I think it leaves ROOM for you to EARN the audience's empathy for your character via peeling the layers.

                    Maybe that won't work for you on this particular project/character. Just throwing it out there.
                    Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

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                    • #40
                      Re: Loving your character too much

                      Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                      I agree with the rest of the gang on how to approach this.

                      One thing I find interesting in my stuff (maybe this will be helpful as you move forward) is that the scripts of mine that hit people the most EMOTIONALLY were the 2 scripts where I open on characters who WE DON'T LIKE.

                      I open and we HATE these characters. Then I'm getting notes back like "lots of heart" "Is this a true story?" etc.

                      I think it leaves ROOM for you to EARN the audience's empathy for your character via peeling the layers.

                      Maybe that won't work for you on this particular project/character. Just throwing it out there.

                      It depends on what you mean by "don't like." I have a hard time with characters I don't like at all, especially if they're the main character. I had a hard time with Breaking Bad because of that. I just didn't find many of the lead characters very engaging. Jessie was great and I liked the ATF agent, and of course Saul was one of the reasons to watch the show, but I found the rest of the main cast rather dull and unappealing.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Loving your character too much

                        Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                        It depends on what you mean by "don't like." I have a hard time with characters I don't like at all, especially if they're the main character. I had a hard time with Breaking Bad because of that. I just didn't find many of the lead characters very engaging. Jessie was great and I liked the ATF agent, and of course Saul was one of the reasons to watch the show, but I found the rest of the main cast rather dull and unappealing.
                        THIS. EXPLAINS. EVERYTHING. !!!!!

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                        • #42
                          Re: Loving your character too much

                          Originally posted by Bono View Post
                          THIS. EXPLAINS. EVERYTHING. !!!!!
                          Ha!
                          Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

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                          • #43
                            Re: Loving your character too much

                            Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                            It depends on what you mean by "don't like." I have a hard time with characters I don't like at all, especially if they're the main character. I had a hard time with Breaking Bad because of that. I just didn't find many of the lead characters very engaging. Jessie was great and I liked the ATF agent, and of course Saul was one of the reasons to watch the show, but I found the rest of the main cast rather dull and unappealing.
                            Gotcha. Then maybe characters like that aren't for you, understandable.

                            For me, I just don't relate to characters I'm "supposed" to like immediately. Feels a bit forced to me. I've never actually meet anyone I've liked immediately. I'm skeptical until I'm not. But, yeah, we all see characters (people) differently. So...?
                            Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Loving your character too much

                              Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                              Gotcha. Then maybe characters like that aren't for you, understandable.

                              For me, I just don't relate to characters I'm "supposed" to like immediately. Feels a bit forced to me. I've never actually meet anyone I've liked immediately. I'm skeptical until I'm not. But, yeah, we all see characters (people) differently. So...?

                              Oh, please. Whether in life or film, some people are just boring. Sorry. Pass.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Loving your character too much

                                Did you just pass on Gucci the person? Because I agree, he's just so boring!!!

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