Picking Right Idea

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  • #46
    Re: Picking Right Idea

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    Using successful works to me is a bogus argument that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking to unsold writers and maybe considering if they are unsold not becuase of their writing abliity but of their inability to pick the right concept.
    Yeah. Even if a script is well executed, it's probably not going to be easy getting reads off loglines that sound cliche and hacky, generally boring, or too out there for the average writer to pull off.

    That's always a fear of mine. I worry my concepts sound too weird to at first glance to be taken seriously most of the time.

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    • #47
      Re: Picking Right Idea

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      • #48
        Re: Picking Right Idea

        "Picking the Right Concept" isn't really the problem. It's cultivating the right concept. If you have a rom-com idea it isn't a question of is this the right concept, it's a question of can I develop this concept into an original rom-com idea.

        Most concepts that scripts are based on are incomplete/underdeveloped concepts, so how can the script have a chance? It can't. Concepts can become clearer, stronger as they are developed. Sadly, most writers abandon concepts that are not wrong they just need work.

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        • #49
          Re: Picking Right Idea

          Yeah but that's the same thing I'm saying. You could have an idea that's 85% there and it would be same idea as the one I pro writer might go with, but they find the extra 15% that makes it a winning concept.

          But sometimes ideas are just bad -- full stop.

          However, yes picking the right idea isn't just 1. yes this is good 2. this is bad -- it's about working the idea BEFORE you write to make sure you have the right concept.

          When you've been doing it longer (with success) you naturally do this w/o even realizing it.

          Try to think of a movie and just take out 15% of the concept and realize how you would never of heard of that movie if they took that part out.

          Let me pick Silence of the Lambs. So a writer might think of a fine concept about an FBI agent tracking down a serial killer. And she could have studied serial killers and that's how she finds the bad guy. Maybe that's a movie -- but it's not a hit. The 15% that makes it an amazing concept is that she goes to genius serial killer to get advice on how to catch the other serial killer.

          I'm just trying to visualize what I'm saying -- not get in arguments about this particular movie -- which I can easily see happening. It's just an example.

          Some people just pick bad ideas and some people are bad are taking their good ideas far enough for them to be great.

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          • #50
            Re: Picking Right Idea

            The transformation/arc of the hero is the 15% you're talking about. Creating the wounded hero and having "current circumstances of plot" challenge then heal them. There's a transformation that happens. That's the emotional resonance.

            I've never read an amateur script that had an executed character arc. Characters ended as the same person they started.

            Plots have to make it personal to the hero, when they do you get that special sauce. But again, you have to be willing to refine and curate for a week, a month, a year? Who knows. Some people like you say have a knack for it, they know it is essential in a good story and they incorporate it from the start.

            Some people give this no thought at all and their script suffers greatly for it yet they don't see it.

            I recommend watching videos on youtube. Not the ones with the gurus but there are a ton of ones where real writers talk about the process and the ingredients to story and how they approach them and what do they think about it. I guarantee that 99% of you will say, "I never thought about it like that." or "I didn't do any of that in my script" or "I didn't even think of doing that." Yet you're probably in the mindset of "I'm close, I can feel it."

            If Hollywood is the destination, most amateurs live in the Arctic Circle thinking that the next script is their breakthrough script.

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            • #51
              Re: Picking Right Idea

              Originally posted by Bono View Post
              Never read Michael's book
              just a link to film courage's youtube channel where Hauge talks about setting up your first act to progress to the other acts

              Concept and execution are deliberate and if you can create a first act that has legs, you can run with it for 90+ pages

              I think most producers would rather take an outline and shape it
              [contrary to]
              ...most writers would rather have a script and create canon

              It's all abstract, for that reason, nothing is very specific or concrete.

              "all story problems lead to the [protag]'s outer motivation" -Hauge

              what they're talking about, is setting up the first act with as much drama as possible, that can play out over 3 acts [and create an achievable goal].
              Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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              • #52
                Re: Picking Right Idea

                Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                "Picking the Right Concept" isn't really the problem. It's cultivating the right concept.
                Right, writing is a mechanic

                why the only way to learn to screenwriting is to write successfully. There are so many moving parts, that all work in congressional tangent to the plot.
                Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                • #53
                  Re: Picking Right Idea

                  For instance, a bad idea was starting this thread.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Picking Right Idea

                    From a studio's point of view a good idea is one that will attract an audience.

                    From a screenwriters point of view a good idea is one he or she is passionate about and leads to writing a good story.

                    This thread was a good idea because it generated much discussion.
                    Last edited by jonpiper; 07-23-2020, 09:39 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Picking Right Idea

                      I read Hauge's book years ago. He has a youtube vid out there where he breaks down A Few Good Men into its parts and talks about them and why they work.

                      I'm not one to sh!t on books, if you wanna be a master craftsman of something, I doubt reading a book or two will hurt you.

                      I can tell you that out of all the unsold material I read the script wouldn't be put down because of Idea. Most of us are just trying to get a dam good sample together that we can show people. Obviously a sale is great but at least get a strong sample. Scripts are put down because of character and structure. The second the reader feels this is going nowhere they put it down. We used to think there was a "ten page" rule but from what I've been hearing from writers and producers and consultants is that you have 1 - 3 pages. They will know by how you present that very first beat of your story.

                      If your character doesn't have an impactful arc and if the plot doesn't pick at his wound then anyone worth a dam in this business will know by page 1. Because a character with a strong transformation will certainly speak and act differently than a character who barely changes or does not change at all.

                      If you're writing in genres like rom-com, dramas, thrillers the transformation of the hero is what happens because of plot. It's the story. Every structural element should serve that story, of course scenes will have to serve other needs as well like advancing the external plot.

                      You have to deliver to the reader a string of beats that will end up being your story. The reader will know after a beat or two if the beats were made by professionals or not.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Picking Right Idea

                        Originally posted by Bono View Post
                        For instance, a bad idea was starting this thread.
                        Bambi was a big-eyed deer.
                        Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                        "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                        • #57
                          Re: Picking Right Idea

                          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                          I read Hauge's book years ago. He has a youtube vid out there where he breaks down A Few Good Men into its parts and talks about them and why they work.
                          yeah, some great insight to Sorkin and the characters he writes... guess he started as an actor, then moved on to theatre and was a playwright, Few Good Men, being his first screenplay

                          He said, in getting the job as a screenwriter for his own play, he read a lot of books on screenwriting and didn't connect with any of the ideas in them... then was lucky to meet William Goldman, who took him under his wing and helped him hone his craft for Features.

                          I do like a handful of Sorkin's scripts and I watched Hauge's videos of him breaking down the story and why Kaffee is so well written... a lot of moral dilemmas of good versus evil and character needing to confront their inner demons to win the battle
                          Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Picking Right Idea

                            For me character development is something on my list that separates pros from amateurs. I've never read a well executed arc in an amateur script. And really most characters don't change a bit. There's some good videos out there on character development that people should watch.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Picking Right Idea

                              well, it's not changing, but the motivation of change that creates great drama... pushing your character to achieve their goal.

                              it can very complex and in scripts like Pulp Fiction it can be illustrated by multiple characters

                              ...or ensemble pieces -- where multiple people share a single goal
                              Ricky Slade: Listen to me, I intentionally make this gun look that way because I am smart.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Picking Right Idea

                                I still feel half of you are pushing the take that any idea can be good and it all depends on other screenwriting factors. But I'm saying this:

                                1. some ideas are just dumb/bad. full stop.

                                2. some ideas just aren't the right take and it's only good and needs to be great so have to adjust it to you find the right way to take idea

                                3. some ideas are better in certain writers hands

                                Again we could all have the same idea. One that everyone in the world agrees is a winning concept. But doesn't mean all of us have the abillity to take that great idea and make it a script that will ultimatly sell. We have to know ourselves and what we can do on the page.

                                4. picking a great idea that is great because of the idea itself and the ablity for YOU to write it better than anyone (99% of people) is the KEY point of all this

                                It takes a lot of self analysis which many writers stink at. If you can't do it -- ask for help and then more important listen if you hear the same notes over and over again.

                                Again, I'm saying this because over my writer's life I've seen and heard so many bad ideas (some of them recently) and your heart breaks when you learn the person has worked on it for years... and a good friend would have told them "please write something else."

                                5. knowing when to let go of an idea. that's not the same as not finishing a script you started as it's always good practice. But there's a fine line between never losing hope in a great concept and pushing a POS up a hill.

                                6. being able to have 5 ideas in front of you and think it through which is the best use of your time.

                                7. being able to judge your own work the same way you judge others. just looking at done deal over the years -- some people give amazing advice and then they don't follow it themselves. They don't realize everything they said to Done Deal Memeber A applies to them Done Deal Memeber B. Some people can learn this over time. Some start out like this. And some never will learn this. It's amazing how people can put on blinders to themselves. It's not a great habit to grow as a writer. So learn to judge yourself even more harshly than you would others. It only helps you write better stuff.

                                Let's keep writing. Just pick the right idea first.

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