How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Screenwriting has dozens of principles, pillars of story telling if you will, it also has some familiar moments that are genre specific, like the couple meeting in Rom Coms, every genre has their recycled scenes they use.

    Anyone who wants to write a book or create a paradigm for storytelling, all they have to do is pull some of these principles and familiar moments out of thin air and put some order to them.

    I never read this Save The Cat book people talk about, when I did the bulk of my reading more than a decade ago, people were reading McKee, Egros, Field. I never heard of this book before. Is it kinda new?

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
      And yes, I think it is more than likely that many pros have benefited from usage of the tools such as STC, even if they don't explicitly state this the way Kristen Wiig did (though of course, I can't conduct some kind of survey to prove this).
      Hey, I can!

      I'm a member of a private board. Every writer on it is a current full time professional screenwriter. You'd recognize a lot of the names; you'd recognize credits of all of them. These are people in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA.

      I asked them:

      Quick question - when you set out to write a screenplay, do you use a template? I.e., a beat by beat formula that you fill in to show you what beats go where, what kind of characters you should have, etc?
      23 people have answered so far. Here are the results:

      Yes, someone else's, like Save The Cat, Truby, etc...
      1 vote(s) 4.3%

      Yes, my own that I've created.
      5 vote(s) 21.7%

      No.
      17 vote(s) 73.9%
      So there you go.

      Comment


      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        Hey, I can!

        I'm a member of a private board. Every writer on it is a current full time professional screenwriter. You'd recognize a lot of the names; you'd recognize credits of all of them. These are people in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA.

        I asked them:

        Quick question - when you set out to write a screenplay, do you use a template? I.e., a beat by beat formula that you fill in to show you what beats go where, what kind of characters you should have, etc?

        23 people have answered so far. Here are the results:

        Yes, someone else's, like Save The Cat, Truby, etc...
        1 vote(s) 4.3%

        Yes, my own that I've created.
        5 vote(s) 21.7%

        No.
        17 vote(s) 73.9%

        So there you go.
        I admire the effort, Jeff. But there are a few factors making it difficult for me to accept this data:

        *Your question asked, when they start writing their screenplays, if they "fill in" something to show where beats go, and thus, physically write something down -- which they may not do even if they have the beats in their head. Resulting in a "no" answer.

        *Your question specifically asked if they use a "formula". Given the stigma around this word, it wouldn't surprise me if that would've made some hesitant to say "yes", even if they do use beats in some fashion.

        *Your question asked if this thing they use identifies "what kind of characters" they should have. I don't even do that when I'm beating things out, so it wouldn't surprise me if that resulted in a "no" response.

        *The survey wasn't anonymous, meaning the writers knew who they were sending their response to. That very likely led to a possible bias in the results, with respondents providing the answer they thought you'd want to hear.

        *There's a strong possibility that many of these individuals are friends/close associates of yours, meaning they are likely like-minded, making it less likely that the group is a representative writer sample. The fact that they are, as you say, "in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA", makes them even less representative.

        In other words, the survey design was rather problematic, which makes its results questionable at best. But still, I appreciate it
        Last edited by UpandComing; 11-17-2015, 09:41 PM.
        "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

        Comment


        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
          I admire the effort, Jeff. But there are a few factors making it difficult for me to accept this data:

          *Your question asked, when they start writing their screenplays, if they "fill in" something to show where beats go, and thus physically write something down -- which they may not do even if they have the beats in their head. Resulting in a "no" answer.

          *Your question specifically asked if they use a "formula". Given the stigma around this word, it wouldn't surprise me if that would've made some hesitant to say "yes", even if they do use beats in some fashion.

          *Your question asked if this thing they use identifies "what kind of characters" they should have. I don't even do that when I'm beating things out, so it wouldn't surprise me if that resulted in a "no" response.

          *The survey wasn't anonymous, meaning the writers knew who they were sending their response to. That very likely led to a possible bias in the results, with respondents providing the answer they thought you'd want to hear.

          *There's a strong possibility that many of these individuals are friends/close associates of yours, meaning they are likely like-minded, making it less likely that the group is a representative writer sample. The fact that they are, as you say, "in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA", makes them even less representative.

          In other words, the survey design was rather problematic, which makes its results questionable at best. But still, I appreciate it
          Up, this post just truly blows my mind man. Jeff thx for taking the time to do that.

          Comment


          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            It was anonymous. And there are 160 members on the board. I promise they're not all my friends, nor were they chosen because of their like mindedness to me. (It's not my board.)

            And it seem like you'd want to hear from people who are at the top of the game... unless you're trying to emulate less successful writers?

            But look, baseline: You think that a large number of pros use "tools like Save The Cat," based on... a hunch? A feeling? On the other side of the debate, you have pro writers posting here, and another 20+ opinions I gathered away from here.

            I realize that you're all in, and not changing your mind. And more power to you! Hopefully some of the other people reading will be a little more open to understanding how the vast majority of pro writers broke in and stay employed. When I broke in, it was certainly the kind of information I was trying to gather.

            I've had versions of this discussion with a lot of people over the years here. My basic message is that rules - be they format, writing style, kind of script, templates, etc - are things that are designed by people trying to make money off of writers, and then passed on by amateur writer to amateur writer. When I talk to my friends about the conversations here, the overwhelming feeling isn't just "I don't follow that rule," it's "that's a rule? I've never even heard of that!"

            Again, look, this isn't just me. Go back and look at the threads Derek Haas posted. Go back and look at comments by Brian Koppelman, Craig Mazin... These are the people who've worked for decades and are in demand. These are people who've had hundreds of meetings with hundreds of executives and producers.

            Why would you believe failed writers selling books and services more than them? It boggles my mind, but again, more power to you on your path.

            Comment


            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              But look, baseline: You think that a large number of pros use "tools like Save The Cat," based on... a hunch? A feeling? On the other side of the debate, you have pro writers posting here, and another 20+ opinions I gathered away from here.
              It's not so much that I think they take a copy of the book out and look at it while filling out a beat sheet. I just think that people keep things that are basic components of it in mind when they are structuring their scripts. Like the "Debate" period when the protag is deciding whether to go on his journey into Act One. Or the point at which he experiences something major that begins to help him address his flaw, near the middle. Or the period when all hope seems lost before the protag recommits himself to achieving his goal in Act Three. I still don't consider these formulas. I consider these natural evolutions in character in the space of a 2 hour film.

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              I've had versions of this discussion with a lot of people over the years here. My basic message is that rules - be they format, writing style, kind of script, templates, etc - are things that are designed by people trying to make money off of writers, and then passed on by amateur writer to amateur writer. When I talk to my friends about the conversations here, the overwhelming feeling isn't just "I don't follow that rule," it's "that's a rule? I've never even heard of that!"
              That seems like a very cynical outlook that leaves no room for nuance. I know there are a lot of charlatans out there, but there's a reason so many in Hollywood have found, at the very least, Syd Field's teachings helpful.

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              Why would you believe failed writers selling books and services more than them? It boggles my mind, but again, more power to you on your path.
              I'd be more skeptical of Snyder's structure (which again, is basically the Hero's Journey) if I didn't see it in literally every Hollywood movie that comes out. To me, that speaks volumes. So I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. More power to you too, brother
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

              Comment


              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                I'd be more skeptical of Snyder's structure (which again, is basically the Hero's Journey) if I didn't see it in literally every Hollywood movie that comes out.
                The key -- what seems to be glossed over -- is that these writers don't use Snyder's template to write their scripts. The template ("structure" -- whatever) is superimposed on successful scripts AFTER THE FACT. That's bass ackwards to the way a "successful template" supposedly should work.

                But enjoy. I'll be breathlessly waiting for your upcoming "tailored by Snyder" blockbuster.
                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                Comment


                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by bioprofessor View Post
                  Clearly, there's only one way to settle this... an old fashioned duel.
                  Pencils at twenty paces!
                  "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

                  Comment


                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by Centos View Post
                    The key -- what seems to be glossed over -- is that these writers don't use Snyder's template to write their scripts. The template ("structure" -- whatever) is superimposed on successful scripts AFTER THE FACT. That's bass ackwards to the way a "successful template" supposedly should work.

                    But enjoy. I'll be breathlessly waiting for your upcoming "tailored by Snyder" blockbuster.
                    It is quite clear, however, that certain successful structures and patterns to story writing exist. It is also true that many practitioners have brought them to light over the centuries. The struggle to explain phenomena and identify patterns is what we humans do (albeit, not always successfully). It's a noble endeavor.

                    To use a biological analogy (of course), the processes of natural selection and evolution are older than life itself - in place long before we humans were a thing. Yet, we give Darwin credit for discovering and describing these natural phenomena. Since then, we have discovered significant variations to Darwin's basic precepts, but those do not negate the foundations of organic evolution. In that sense, Blake Snyder and Charles Darwin are similar - though I think Darwin was a bit more humble.

                    Comment


                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Working writers, pals with working writers are saying:
                      We don't use template.

                      Never-sold-anything writers, pals with internet and never-sold-anything writers are saying:
                      Working writers are using template. I read it online.

                      Yup.

                      Kudos to Ronaldhino and Jeff L, who give on their free time to share some knowledge with people who don't want to hear the truth. Like I said before, it's great, cause it means less competition.

                      As for me, I don't use save the cat/field/mckee. I find it to be too rigid.

                      I worked with two Never-sold-anything writers spoon fed by one of these, and it was awful. They know how to (re) create mediocre ideas. It was always flat. They could (re) create logical characters. No sparks. No identity. Nothing. I had to teach em other ways, but they still argued with me because "XXXX" said so.

                      I think it can still be helpful, not for writing, but as a tool for rewriting. Yet, you could just watch movies to see how to fix your script instead of using templates.

                      The first script I sold contained no Antagonist, no "strategy", no "dark night of the soul". It received a 9/10 on the blacklist, and got sold. Should I rewrite it so it fit the almighty template?

                      In my humble opinion, it's sad how newcomers focus on exactly what you don't have to focus on : structure, template, "do a better movie than Transformers". Get this : We don't care. We don't care about structure, about if the act one break is on page 25, if there is an "epiphany" on page 60. We care about what's your emotional point of view about the world. That's the only thing that matters.
                      The question is : Do you work in the business?

                      Comment


                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by Takeshiro View Post
                        The first script I sold contained no Antagonist, no "strategy", no "dark night of the soul". It received a 9/10 on the blacklist, and got sold. Should I rewrite it so it fit the almighty template?
                        Believe me, if some of the people here had access to your script, they would shoehorn in an Antagonist, strategy and dark night of the soul and argue that you just don't recognize them.
                        Last edited by StoryWriter; 11-18-2015, 02:23 AM.
                        "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

                        Comment


                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?



                          The sad part is that you are probably right.

                          We should write a movie : Dark Knight of the soul.
                          The question is : Do you work in the business?

                          Comment


                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Originally posted by bioprofessor View Post
                            It is quite clear, however, that certain successful structures and patterns to story writing exist. It is also true that many practitioners have brought them to light over the centuries. The struggle to explain phenomena and identify patterns is what we humans do (albeit, not always successfully). It's a noble endeavor.

                            To use a biological analogy (of course), the processes of natural selection and evolution are older than life itself - in place long before we humans were a thing. Yet, we give Darwin credit for discovering and describing these natural phenomena. Since then, we have discovered significant variations to Darwin's basic precepts, but those do not negate the foundations of organic evolution. In that sense, Blake Snyder and Charles Darwin are similar - though I think Darwin was a bit more humble.
                            I like the way you think, sir. Patterns can be found in everything.
                            "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                            Comment


                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Originally posted by Centos View Post
                              But enjoy. I'll be breathlessly waiting for your upcoming "tailored by Snyder" blockbuster.
                              Awesome! I can't wait to dedicate it to you.
                              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                              Comment


                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                                I admire the effort, Jeff. But there are a few factors making it difficult for me to accept this data:

                                *Your question asked, when they start writing their screenplays, if they "fill in" something to show where beats go, and thus, physically write something down -- which they may not do even if they have the beats in their head. Resulting in a "no" answer.

                                *Your question specifically asked if they use a "formula". Given the stigma around this word, it wouldn't surprise me if that would've made some hesitant to say "yes", even if they do use beats in some fashion.

                                *Your question asked if this thing they use identifies "what kind of characters" they should have. I don't even do that when I'm beating things out, so it wouldn't surprise me if that resulted in a "no" response.

                                *The survey wasn't anonymous, meaning the writers knew who they were sending their response to. That very likely led to a possible bias in the results, with respondents providing the answer they thought you'd want to hear.

                                *There's a strong possibility that many of these individuals are friends/close associates of yours, meaning they are likely like-minded, making it less likely that the group is a representative writer sample. The fact that they are, as you say, "in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA", makes them even less representative.

                                In other words, the survey design was rather problematic, which makes its results questionable at best. But still, I appreciate it
                                O.M.G. What amazes me only a tad more than your pretzel logic is that Jeff didn't rip you a new one. Clearly you're dealing with a kinder, gentler Lowell these days.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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