How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
    Judging from the disaster that was "Skin," I'm guessing it's just a market call.
    yeah, what does HBO know giving David Simon all that money to make a 1970s Times Square porn series. idiots

    http://deadline.com/2015/08/david-si...ts-1201492951/

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by figment
      Jeff had a really interesting pilot about the porn industry in the 70's (was it the 70's?) that got a "9" on the Blacklist. He's already a professional, so the risk would've been lessened. But it hasn't gotten made yet. Does that mean it isn't quality? Of course not. It's harder than everyone thinks, me thinks.
      Nearly every pro I know who has been at this for a while has a script or two that is really good on the shelf. This is particularly the case in TV, where it seems like things age ultra-fast and rarely come back to life.

      In features stuff has this tendency of cropping back up. There's really only one script from my first real go-round at this (about a decade ago) that I still think is worth a damn. It got super close to being produced twice ... and it looks like it's about to get another at-bat.

      There are scripts like "Passengers" which took nearly a decade to get into production, and I suspect "A Killing on Carnival Row" is never going to happen.

      In TV, I think, it is trickier, because networks are always trying to build a slate or a brand. A friend of mine wrote one of the best pilots I ever read for (I think) Lions Gate, and I thought there was no way every feasible network would pass, but I think at this point everybody has. These things sometimes come back to life, but it is rare. The issue wasn't quality so much as no network really being able to slot it into a home.

      That being said, I don't think there are a lot of WRITERS sitting on the sidelines. John Spaights and Travis Beacham have worked like gangbusters since they wrote those two scripts. My friend who wrote the amazing pilot is almost certainly going to be staffed on her show runner's other show if it goes.

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      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
        I guess I would ask this. Why did Blake Snyder go fifteen years from his last credit to his death, if his method produced "successful" screenplays? If there were one human being who should have been able to use the method, you'd think he would be the one.
        I hate to keep being That Guy, but Snyder had over a dozen spec sales, including one shortly before he died. It's true that most of those scripts never got made, but come to think of it, most of Jeff Lowell's specs haven't gotten made either. And as others have pointed out, good scripts can get stuck on the shelf for reasons having nothing to do with their quality.

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        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by MrZero View Post
          I hate to keep being That Guy, but Snyder had over a dozen spec sales, including one shortly before he died. It's true that most of those scripts never got made, but come to think of it, most of Jeff Lowell's specs haven't gotten made either. And as others have pointed out, good scripts can get stuck on the shelf for reasons having nothing to do with their quality.
          It should also be noted that Blake Snyder's father was an Emmy-winning TV producer -- so I'm willing to bet that Snyder probably had some doors opened for him. With his connections, past sales and a "can't lose" STC formula, we should have seen a lot more Blake Snyder movies, don't you think?
          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            A quality script may not get made or even sold but if you put this quality script under the noses of gatekeepers they'd say what? They don't want to see anything else, not willing to hear a pitch?

            Who is writing this so called quality script that led to no advancement in ones career? A pure amateur who happened to produce real drama on the page? Chances are that quality script is attached to a budding writer who is going to follow up with a script that is even better.

            Someone who can produce quality work will break in, unless they are writing scripts and not pursuing representation or contests.

            Nobody wanted to make Rain Man. Three directors were attached and dropped off, nobody wanted to play the Dustin Hoffman character. That was a quality script that sat on the sidelines for quite a while. What we're talking about is something totally different.

            We're talking about getting the foot in the door with someone of power. To do that you need a quality script. That's the only ticket. Don't ever worry that your genre piece that you knock out of the park won't get you something, cause it will.

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            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by Ronaldinho View Post
              Nearly every pro I know who has been at this for a while has a script or two that is really good on the shelf. This is particularly the case in TV, where it seems like things age ultra-fast and rarely come back to life.

              In features stuff has this tendency of cropping back up. There's really only one script from my first real go-round at this (about a decade ago) that I still think is worth a damn. It got super close to being produced twice ... and it looks like it's about to get another at-bat.

              There are scripts like "Passengers" which took nearly a decade to get into production, and I suspect "A Killing on Carnival Row" is never going to happen.

              In TV, I think, it is trickier, because networks are always trying to build a slate or a brand. A friend of mine wrote one of the best pilots I ever read for (I think) Lions Gate, and I thought there was no way every feasible network would pass, but I think at this point everybody has. These things sometimes come back to life, but it is rare. The issue wasn't quality so much as no network really being able to slot it into a home.

              That being said, I don't think there are a lot of WRITERS sitting on the sidelines. John Spaights and Travis Beacham have worked like gangbusters since they wrote those two scripts. My friend who wrote the amazing pilot is almost certainly going to be staffed on her show runner's other show if it goes.
              This is absolutely true. A great script doesn't have to get made to get you a solid career. How many pros can point to a great spec they wrote that never got made but became their calling card into the business. I can trace every rewrite job, my reps, every other spec option or sale, every big meeting.... back to one so far unproduced script I wrote 17 years ago.

              It's not always about getting produced, it's about getting noticed. And cookie cutter STC based scripts aren't going to cut it from what I've seen. It's about tossing that crap, and IMO it is crap, a just writing a story. Doing your subject research, knowing your characters well enough to let them guide you to a certain extent, and taking a natural journey with your premise. Creating something, not following some map that stifles creativity.

              And talent and luck are a big part of success. Doesn't mean you don't have to have endless patience or a massive work ethic. But don't kid yourself, having the goods when you are in the right place at the right time is a huge part of this. I can point to unbelievably random luck or good fortune in my career. Things that happened out of the blue that turned into sales or write for hire jobs.

              If you need the structure of a STC in order to write a script, then by all means, go for it. But to say that every writer needs to look at these things in order to be successful is flat out wrong.

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              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by EdFury View Post
                But to say that every writer needs to look at these things in order to be successful is flat out wrong.
                Ed, I'm pretty sure this is mischaracterizing the main argument that is being made in defense of STC. I'm pretty sure the main argument is that it is a useful screenwriting tool that just needs to be used responsibly.
                "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                  This is the thing, Jeff -- at a high level, I don't consider it all that formulaic. I think the beats for the most part follow the natural progression of a character as he goes through what we could call the key stages of character development: he goes on a journey that forces him to confront his flaw, has a revelation that makes him truly realize his flaw and starts to progress, reverts to his flaw and reaches a low point, then rebounds from his low point and goes on to achieve his goal.
                  You keep trying to reduce Snyder down to some basic, inarguable Key To Drama. If you just strip away the more specific stuff, if you just strip away the minute at which something should happen... Then it's not a formula, it's just a nugget of dramatic truth.

                  IMO, even the essence of Snyder you've got there could take you right off the rails if you try to use it to tell certain kinds of stories. If you had the idea for "The Hangover," and then began by sitting down and applying that formula to it, you'd have to make one of the characters a protagonist, instead of the ensemble it is, and have that character go through those stages, while the plot and the other characters helped him on his journey... Blah.

                  But honestly, maybe it'll work for you. Maybe the next idea you have is one where that kind of formula is perfect for helping structure it. I think it's limiting for reasons I've pointed out; I certainly don't think it's fatal.

                  Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                  I hate to keep being That Guy, but Snyder had over a dozen spec sales, including one shortly before he died. It's true that most of those scripts never got made, but come to think of it, most of Jeff Lowell's specs haven't gotten made either. And as others have pointed out, good scripts can get stuck on the shelf for reasons having nothing to do with their quality.
                  If you're going to be That Guy, please be That Guy accurately. FoxHound said that the produced writers I asked about process would have more "successful" movies if they'd used the STC formula; I replied that the man who invented the formula not only didn't have successful movies, he had zero movies in fifteen years.

                  But to your larger point, I agree - you can't judge a writer solely (or even mostly) based on screen credits. There are plenty of great scripts that don't get made, there are plenty of great scripts that get made into shitty movies, and there are plenty of writers who do important uncredited work on great movies.

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                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                    IMO, even the essence of Snyder you've got there could take you right off the rails if you try to use it to tell certain kinds of stories.
                    Agreed. I certainly don't think it works for all stories; I just think it works for many, if not most.
                    "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                      Agreed. I certainly don't think it works for all stories; I just think it works for many, if not most.
                      Not the most interesting ones. I'll be honest, I think I would be dissuaded from writing an ensemble movie like Spotlight for the very reasons Jeff pointed out. I saw it two days ago and still can't get it out of my head. And in this remarkably saturated market, you have to stand out from the cookie cutter scripts. Does STC help or hinder in that regard?

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                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Originally posted by MrZero View Post
                        I hate to keep being That Guy, but Snyder had over a dozen spec sales, including one shortly before he died. It's true that most of those scripts never got made, but come to think of it, most of Jeff Lowell's specs haven't gotten made either. And as others have pointed out, good scripts can get stuck on the shelf for reasons having nothing to do with their quality.

                        Since I'd never seen a reference to Snyder selling 12 scripts I went looking for your source. I found it on his IMDB bio which was credited as written by "Save The Cat Enterprises." I googled that name and found a LinkedIn page. And the text written there really bugged my copywriter sensibilities. From LinkedIn:

                        Since 2006, Blake Snyder Enterprises has worked with writers and filmmakers to create stories that resonate. In his best-selling “Save the Cat!” series of books, Blake developed a screenwriting paradigm that has become the gold standard for filmmakers everywhere. Our mission has been to bring those ideas and methods to screenwriters, producers and directors throughout the world. Whether presenting a seminar to a major media company or consulting with an aspiring writer on her first project, we’re passionately committed to helping filmmakers realize their vision. Our books, software and phone app are now standard parts of the screenwriter’s toolkit and our weekend intensive workshops have become a preferred destination for writers from around the world.
                        https://www.linkedin.com/company/bla...er-enterprises
                        If I were the copywriter on this gig I would tell the client we shouldn't use the "gold standard" BS. It sets you up for criticism from those who know better.

                        Especially misleading is the exaggerated claim that their books, software and app are standard parts of the screenwriter's toolkit.

                        This heavily misleads one to think a great number of professional screenwriters purchased these STC tools. And, again, those who know better (like the pros in this thread) will be quick to point out the fallacy.

                        I would then explain to the client how over-the-top, unsubstantiated claims will, over time erode their sales. Though it may take many years it will happen. I bet this thread alone has convinced a number of newbies to save their money on this book which claims it's the last screenwriting book they'll ever need (really bad subtitle).

                        I also have to wonder what number of the book-buying public are interested in buying screenwriting books. Compared to people who buy novels I'd say it's at best a small niche market. To risk alienating portions of this small market with easily-challenged claims is a real no-no.

                        Now, let's look at Robert McKee's book, Story. Published in 1997, its cover subtitle avoids exaggerated claims: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting. And it's closing on it's 20th year in publication.

                        I also noticed the LinkedIn page indicates STC Enterprises is privately owned and has up to 10 employees. If I were in the position to advise them, I would say revamp your marketing message ASAP. And stop using the misleading photos, too.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Originally posted by madworld View Post
                          Not the most interesting ones. I'll be honest, I think I would be dissuaded from writing an ensemble movie like Spotlight for the very reasons Jeff pointed out. I saw it two days ago and still can't get it out of my head. And in this remarkably saturated market, you have to stand out from the cookie cutter scripts. Does STC help or hinder in that regard?
                          Like I said a few posts prior -- I don't think most of the originality of scripts comes from structure. I think most of it comes from character, plot, and dialogue. There are many interesting scripts that have been written using STC; it's not as hard as people are implying to create variety within its beats.
                          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                            the last screenwriting book they'll ever need
                            Come on...that's just marketing...nobody believes that.

                            That's like Trump saying "elect me and it'll be just great, just fantastic." Nobody believes that, right? Right?
                            Story Structure 1
                            Story Structure 2
                            Story Structure 3

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                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              All right, Upandcoming, I think I've got it. You use STC to provide structure but not plot, and you rely on it to supply "the key stages of character development," but not character.

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                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by madworld View Post
                                Not the most interesting ones. I'll be honest, I think I would be dissuaded from writing an ensemble movie like Spotlight for the very reasons Jeff pointed out. I saw it two days ago and still can't get it out of my head. And in this remarkably saturated market, you have to stand out from the cookie cutter scripts. Does STC help or hinder in that regard?
                                In terms of having your spec stand out, I think it hinders.

                                A few people in this thread have deduced that, if so many produced films appear to follow the STC formula, it's good to show them you too can write to fit that formula. I disagree.

                                My opinion is based on my experiences in copywriting but I'm pretty sure it also applies to multi-million-dollar film projects looking for a writer.

                                Clients want to know that their writers are highly talented and creative. Even if they don't need highly creative work from those writers.

                                The reason: a top-notch creative writer can always tone down their work to fit the needs of the project. But they can also think out of the box when a project requires.

                                In other words, clients want a racehorse even though they may only need a horse to give pony rides. Because they may, down the road, need that racehorse to cut loose and run hard.

                                A writer whose sample work shows no sign of exceptional creativity will cause the client to doubt they can amp up their creativity when the need arises.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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