Timings to specific page

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  • #76
    Re: Timings to specific page

    Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
    TigarFang, since you say you know of a LOT of movies that fall outside the observed percentages made by Syd Field, could you give me a list of ten major studio films that do this? I'd like to analyze them.

    This should be no problem because it's not like you have to take the time and energy to do research or ask other members for assistance to find them since you say you're already familiar with the existence of these films.

    I've analyzed a lot of films and screenplays and haven't discovered any until Jeff brought "Unforgiven" to my attention. I would like to have more examples, so if you could just mention 10 of all of these films you've came across, it'll be a big help, thank you.
    Pulp Fiction
    Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
    Atonement
    Memento
    Mulholland Drive
    Rashomon
    Inception
    Upstream Color
    The Social Network
    Citizen Kane
    Magnolia
    The Master
    The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
    Once Upon A Time in America
    21 Grams
    The Thin Red Line
    8 1/2
    Annie Hall
    City of God
    Traffic
    The Usual Suspects
    Adaptation
    The Constant Gardener
    Forrest Gump
    Slumdog Millionaire
    Kill Bill Vol. 1
    Amores Perros
    Things We Lost in the Fire
    Twelve Monkeys


    Originally posted by Satriales View Post
    This board is like a neighborhood Facebook group on whatever Don Jr was on last night.
    Your comment is spot on, brother.

    Originally posted by sc111 View Post
    So Vogler used Campbell's work to come up with 12 "stages."

    And Snyder borrowed heavily from Campbell to develop 15 "beats."

    Yet Campbell's book identifies 17 "passages" or "initiations" in the heroic journey.

    Meanwhile, Campbell's book was never intended as a guide for fiction writers.

    The vast majority of his work was an analysis of cultural and religious MYTHS & FOLKTALES -- Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Christian (Old/New Testament), Jewish Kabala, Buddhist, African, Native American, Aborigine, Aztec ... and so on.

    In fact, works of literature appear the least in his analysis and usually referencing Freudian and Jungian symbolism.

    I just checked the book's index -- there's zero mention of films or movies.

    Yet somehow Vogler and Snyder shoe-horned Campbell's work into a punch-list for screenwriters to follow?

    And now there's a Save The Cat book for novel writing?

    Yet they can't even agree if it's 12 or 15 beats/stages, let alone Campbell's 17?

    Sigh.
    Agree with you 100%.
    “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Timings to specific page

      Good list. I think I mentioned "Taken" before, and it's out of whack in an unusual way. I think the trend is towards shorter first and third acts, but it's lopsided. The script I have is 102 pages long, which means the second act should start on 25 by the guides... it starts on 36.

      Okay, off by 45%. But here's the beauty part: the third act starts on page 101. A one page third act.

      (Actually, I could make the case that there's not a third act at all, in the traditional sense. Just two acts and an epilogue. I can't even find a midpoint.)

      ETA: Okay, just wanted to see what the "Save The Cat" people have to say about "Taken." They break it down on the official Save The Cat website. It's so bad it's laughable - they just filled the plot in, calling whatever was happening in the movie by the label on the worksheet when the pages match. It's intellectually bankrupt.

      There is no "loses all hope" moment. There is no "dark night of the soul." He's launched into action on page 36 and he's a machine - he keeps pursing leads, never losing hope, always moving forwards no matter what gets in his way. He never changes plans: he has a particular set of skills, and he brings them to bear until he gets his daughter back. That's it.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Timings to specific page

        I don't know about Taken, but I for one have LOST ALL HOPE reading the last month or so of posts on this board.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Timings to specific page

          More seriously -- isn't spec scripts vs films a different list? Most of the movies used as examples are ones that don't follow a formula are from writer/directors or were already greenlight.

          I don't know if Taken was a spec -- but to me the pitch was Liam Neeson kicks ass. And has been at least the pitch on the last 20 movies he's made.

          So I get the points being made -- but also most of us are trying to write mainstream specs to break in. Is that wrong way to go about it?

          To me, if you want to go your own way, the Pulp Fiction way -- you're more a writer/director at heart. Is that wrong way to look at it?

          I'm sure there are specs on the black list that broke all the rules and that will be thrown in my face soon. I'm excited!!!!

          But let's go back to the issue of high concept. Isn't that going to lead to specs having a lot of these beats?

          I see this all from the perspective of unsold writer trying to break in.

          So I love Taken. I agree doesn't hit the STC beats. And that story needed to be that way. But I don't think that is so amazing that it's selling as a spec by unknown me. It was written by bigger names.

          So I'm saying it's nice to say those rules and beats are keeping the writer down and giving examples of great movies, but if you had the list of the last 100 specs that sold, how many are that way and how many would easily hit the beats?

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Timings to specific page

            One of my favorite movies of all time is Something Wild. The criminal ex-husband doesn't show up until 51 minutes into the movie. The criminal ex is dead by the end of the movie, which if the paradigm books were right would say he needs to be in the setup/first act of the movie.

            The first hint of him is 36 minutes in when Charlie glances at a newspaper clipping about the guy, not understanding what he's reading. Minute 43 Charlie is complaining about losing his wallet and how f-ed he'll be... He doesn't know that by the end of the movie he'll kill a man.

            I don't know if this enough of a studio movie to be considered, but the movie features Ray Liotta's breakout role.

            https://variety.com/2020/film/news/s...ta-1234614988/

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Timings to specific page

              Originally posted by Bono View Post
              So I get the points being made -- but also most of us are trying to write mainstream specs to break in. Is that wrong way to go about it?

              [...]

              But let's go back to the issue of high concept. Isn't that going to lead to specs having a lot of these beats?
              I think a spec of "Taken" would have been very well received. It's relentless.

              I don't know the history of all the projects mentioned in TigerFang's list, but if you sent any of them around, you'd get attention.

              We've had this conversation a million times, but a lot of prominent writers broke through with really unconventional screenplays. A lot of them were deemed unproduceable, and then sometimes they got produced because people loved them so much.

              Most movies follow a basic flow. You're never going to get in trouble having a conventional, tightly structured script. I just think filling in a form is a bad way to start a project. I think rewriting to hit page numbers is a bad way to proceed.

              There are tens of thousands of WGA writers who can write the same old thing. I'd argue writing something different is a good way to get noticed.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Timings to specific page

                What is life if not having the same conversations over and over until we die?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Timings to specific page

                  Originally posted by Bono View Post
                  More seriously -- isn't spec scripts vs films a different list? Most of the movies used as examples are ones that don't follow a formula are from writer/directors or were already greenlight.

                  I don't know if Taken was a spec -- but to me the pitch was Liam Neeson kicks ass. And has been at least the pitch on the last 20 movies he's made.

                  So I get the points being made -- but also most of us are trying to write mainstream specs to break in. Is that wrong way to go about it?

                  To me, if you want to go your own way, the Pulp Fiction way -- you're more a writer/director at heart. Is that wrong way to look at it?

                  I'm sure there are specs on the black list that broke all the rules and that will be thrown in my face soon. I'm excited!!!!

                  But let's go back to the issue of high concept. Isn't that going to lead to specs having a lot of these beats?

                  I see this all from the perspective of unsold writer trying to break in.

                  So I love Taken. I agree doesn't hit the STC beats. And that story needed to be that way. But I don't think that is so amazing that it's selling as a spec by unknown me. It was written by bigger names.

                  So I'm saying it's nice to say those rules and beats are keeping the writer down and giving examples of great movies, but if you had the list of the last 100 specs that sold, how many are that way and how many would easily hit the beats?
                  Unless I'm super voicey and I've been writing theater or some craziness, I'm going straight down the middle - and I don't mean "safe" material, provocative is great - to break in. That feels easier, IMO.

                  If you're a genius like Taylor Sheridan and you can do whatever you want, go for it. Then you can piss in the face of exposition and form more easily without it counting against you.

                  Risky/elevated idea+familiar execution just feels like you're giving people less of a reason to say no.

                  I don't think there's a right way, but I prefer to think about this as giving yourself the most number of lottery tickets.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Timings to specific page

                    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                    Good list.
                    Really, Jeff?

                    You're congratulating TigerFang on his list that shows examples of films outside of Syd Fields' paradigm percentages?

                    Syd Fields' paradigm is a traditional three act structure model. It's linear. Act 1 (Beginning), Act 2 (Middle) Act 3 (End).

                    I asked TigerFang to show me major studio films, as pertaining to his attack on the paradigm, that demonstrate they are outside the percentages.

                    He gives me a list of non-linear films. I stopped after the first ten. PULP FICTION to CITIZEN KANE. Of course these are not going to be in the area of the percentages of the paradigm. They are a different structure. Not the typical, conventional Hollywood film. As with the "Unforgiven" example.

                    TigerFang doesn't play fair.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Timings to specific page

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      I think a spec of "Taken" would have been very well received. It's relentless.

                      I don't know the history of all the projects mentioned in TigerFang's list, but if you sent any of them around, you'd get attention.

                      We've had this conversation a million times, but a lot of prominent writers broke through with really unconventional screenplays. A lot of them were deemed unproduceable, and then sometimes they got produced because people loved them so much.

                      Most movies follow a basic flow. You're never going to get in trouble having a conventional, tightly structured script. I just think filling in a form is a bad way to start a project. I think rewriting to hit page numbers is a bad way to proceed.

                      There are tens of thousands of WGA writers who can write the same old thing. I'd argue writing something different is a good way to get noticed.
                      I hear you. But I'm also trying really hard to be one of those WGA writers who can write the same old thing. That seems like a very hard group to join.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Timings to specific page

                        Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                        He gives me a list of non-linear films. I stopped after the first ten. PULP FICTION to CITIZEN KANE. Of course these are not going to be in the area of the percentages of the paradigm.
                        There is zero reason a non-linear film can't have a traditional structure in terms of act breaks, etc.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Timings to specific page

                          Originally posted by Satriales View Post

                          I don't think there's a right way, but I prefer to think about this as giving yourself the most number of lottery tickets.
                          Thing is -- you can buy 100 lottery tickets but the odds against each individual ticket are exactly the same. Buying 100 tickets does not improve your odds.

                          It's similar with scripts, I think. We can't artificially lower The odds by following a beat sheet or chasing the market.

                          The only way to lower the odds is writing a killer script. And that's the challenge.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Timings to specific page

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            So I love Taken. I agree doesn't hit the STC beats. And that story needed to be that way.
                            In a nutshell, this is it: write what best serves the story.

                            A great premise plus well-executed story choices to best serve the story. That's a short sentence to describe a long road to a commercially viable screenplay.
                            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Timings to specific page

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              There is zero reason a non-linear film can't have a traditional structure in terms of act breaks, etc.
                              My discussion with TigerFang was not about films where the structure was broken up, twisted, fragmented, etc.

                              TigerFang stated in post #69 that Syd Field's pattern (paradigm) is a gimmicky, paint-by-number "how to's." He stated he seen a LOT of films outside this pattern. I asked him to name ten major studio films that it's three act percentages were outside the paradigm's.

                              TigerFang thought he'll play it cute with me by giving me that list of non-linear films.

                              Also, I'd like to point out that TigerFang got that list from a web site called "indietalk" from a thread titled: "What Notable American Features Do NOT Use the Traditional Three Act Structure?"

                              This is what I meant when I said TigerFang doesn't play fair. He knew this list wasn't traditional three act structured films, but he posted it anyway.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Timings to specific page

                                Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                                My discussion with TigerFang was not about films where the structure was broken up, twisted, fragmented, etc.

                                TigerFang stated in post #69 that Syd Field's pattern (paradigm) is a gimmicky, paint-by-number "how to's." He stated he seen a LOT of films outside this pattern. I asked him to name ten major studio films that it's three act percentages were outside the paradigm's.

                                TigerFang thought he'll play it cute with me by giving me that list of non-linear films.

                                Also, I'd like to point out that TigerFang got that list from a web site called "indietalk" from a thread titled: "What Notable American Features Do NOT Use the Traditional Three Act Structure?"

                                This is what I meant when I said TigerFang doesn't play fair. He knew this list wasn't traditional three act structured films, but he posted it anyway.

                                Cry more.

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