Objectification of women

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  • #16
    Re: Objectification of women

    LOVE ACTUALLY is the perfect example of a movie that pulls at the heart strings with absolutely zero character development. To the best of my recollection, most of the couples "falling in love" in that film never actually even have a conversation that lasts more than 3 lines.

    Yes, it's sappy, enjoyable fluff, but deep down it's insulting to both sexes--although probably a little bit more to women. There is not a single, real connection between couples in that entire film. The only real love relationship is between Liam Neeson and the kid, if you think about it. The dissolve of Emma Thompson's marriage to Alan Rickman (RIP, you wonderful actor), is the only other relationship that rang true to me --but that's about falling OUT of love.

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    • #17
      Re: Objectification of women

      Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
      LOVE ACTUALLY is the perfect example of a movie that pulls at the heart strings with absolutely zero character development. To the best of my recollection, most of the couples "falling in love" in that film never actually even have a conversation that lasts more than 3 lines.

      Yes, it's sappy, enjoyable fluff, but deep down it's insulting to both sexes--although probably a little bit more to women. There is not a single, real connection between couples in that entire film. The only real love relationship is between Liam Neeson and the kid, if you think about it. The dissolve of Emma Thompson's marriage to Alan Rickman (RIP, you wonderful actor), is the only other relationship that rang true to me --but that's about falling OUT of love.
      I would also include Laura Linney and her brother, and Bill Nighy and his manager. But those just prove your point even further. Hmm....maybe the entire film is a subversive commentary on the genre.

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      • #18
        Re: Objectification of women

        The problem is that movies and real life work differently. Especially action movies, coming of age comedies and romantic comedies often have outrageously bad messages.

        You don't kill your opponents, destroy the city and win the girl in the end. And you don't "fight" for the woman and win her over in the end. But those are the stories we have been telling as a society for more than HUNDREDS (!) of years and it's hard not to fall back on those patterns, because they work -- from a storytelling point of view.

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        • #19
          Re: Objectification of women

          Does 'Sex and the City' objectify men? Does marriage objectify both parties? Do sports fans objectify the players? Does McDonald's objectify cows? Does religion objectify all lifeforms? (I've no idea where I'm going with this.)
          Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
          "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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          • #20
            Re: Objectification of women

            Subjects act, objects are acted upon -- but is objectification bad?

            John helps Mary. Mary is the object in the sentence.

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            • #21
              Re: Objectification of women

              Originally posted by Crayon View Post
              (I've no idea where I'm going with this.)
              That's usually a hint that maybe you shouldn't post.

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              • #22
                Re: Objectification of women

                Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                Subjects act, objects are acted upon -- but is objectification bad?

                John helps Mary. Mary is the object in the sentence.
                Again, it's bad in aggregate. Are women consistently the object of stories rather than independent actors who drive the plot in any way? Then you've got a problem. If that's a general trend (and I would argue that it is and has been), then when someone says a particular movie is doing it, you shouldn't hear that criticism as "This movie objectifies women, and is therefore uniquely bad in a way that no other movie ever has been and also everyone connected with it is tainted by this unique example of misogyny." It's more like, "This popular movie is one example of a pervasive trend, so we'll use it to illustrate that trend and also point out that it's not helping to counteract that trend."

                Every movie is going to be criticized for something. In fact, if nobody can find anything to criticize about your movie, you've probably done something wrong. So you can't really sweat it too much. But it's good to be aware of major trends or tropes that might rub people the wrong way.

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                • #23
                  Re: Objectification of women

                  Originally posted by Yaso View Post
                  Subjects act, objects are acted upon -- but is objectification bad?

                  John helps Mary. Mary is the object in the sentence.
                  Yeah. That's kind of the point. If you look at the female characters in your script and their actions can only be described as the object of sentence (John helps Mary. John woos Mary. John rescues Mary), you might need to rethink her purpose in the story.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Objectification of women

                    Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                    Yeah. That's kind of the point. If you look at the female characters in your script and their actions can only be described as the object of sentence (John helps Mary. John woos Mary. John rescues Mary), you might need to rethink her purpose in the story.
                    Let's see; if I had my character open a door for Mary, that would be objectifying Mary. But then if I mentioned he let the door slam in Mary's face, wouldn't that also be objectifying Mary? In fact if I had him just notice Mary walking toward the door, that would also be objectifying Mary.

                    Maybe it's best not to have Mary (or any other woman) in the script, at all. It sounds impossible not to objectify her or the rest of them.

                    Why don't you give me an example of a woman meeting a man, that doesn't objectify either one of them in any of the sentences. I'd like to see how it's done.
                    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                    • #25
                      Re: Objectification of women

                      Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                      Let's see; if I had my character open a door for Mary, that would be objectifying Mary. But then if I mentioned he let the door slam in Mary's face, wouldn't that also be objectifying Mary? In fact if I had him just notice Mary walking toward the door, that would also be objectifying Mary.

                      Maybe it's best not to have Mary (or any other woman) in the script, at all. It sounds impossible not to objectify her or the rest of them.

                      Why don't you give me an example of a woman meeting a man, that doesn't objectify either one of them in any of the sentences. I'd like to see how it's done.
                      I think you're being purposefully obtuse for...fun? Because you don't like the discussion?

                      If you look through your whole script and there's never a point where Mary is actually doing anything, if she only functions as the object for the male protagonist for one reason or another, then your story is objectifying Mary. You can choose to be OK with that if you want (there are plenty of great stories that objectify women), but it's not like there's some horrible sin in recognizing it.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Objectification of women

                        Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                        Let's see; if I had my character open a door for Mary, that would be objectifying Mary.
                        No.

                        Not even grammatically. That's the dative case there, not the accusative.

                        You objectify a human being when you deny them their humanity and treat them as a means to an end, and not an end in themselves.

                        Treating women as inherently helpless is closely related to -- but logically distinct from -- objectifying them. And do I really need to explain to a community of aspiring writers that what one of your characters believes and values is not always what you the writer believe and value?

                        It sounds impossible not to objectify her or the rest of them.
                        Then maybe writing is not for you?

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                        • #27
                          Re: Objectification of women

                          Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                          Let's see; if I had my character open a door for Mary, that would be objectifying Mary. But then if I mentioned he let the door slam in Mary's face, wouldn't that also be objectifying Mary? In fact if I had him just notice Mary walking toward the door, that would also be objectifying Mary.

                          Maybe it's best not to have Mary (or any other woman) in the script, at all. It sounds impossible not to objectify her or the rest of them.

                          Why don't you give me an example of a woman meeting a man, that doesn't objectify either one of them in any of the sentences. I'd like to see how it's done.
                          So wait, this character only exists in your script to get the door slammed in her face or get stared at by the main character? And you can't see that as objectification?

                          I think I had a straight forward premise. If you can ONLY describe a woman's purpose in a script as the object of a male's action, then she's objectified.

                          If you're trying to write fully-rounded characters, no one in your scripts should exist solely to aid/prevent your main characters action. They need to have some agency of their own.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Objectification of women

                            Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                            So wait, this character only exists in your script to get the door slammed in her face or get stared at by the main character? And you can't see that as objectification?

                            I think I had a straight forward premise. If you can ONLY describe a woman's purpose in a script as the object of a male's action, then she's objectified.

                            If you're trying to write fully-rounded characters, no one in your scripts should exist solely to aid/prevent your main characters action. They need to have some agency of their own.
                            P.S. I do "get" what is meant by objectifying women and the movies that do this just don't interest me. All the scripts I've written, except one, are written with a woman lead, just because those stories seemed more interesting from that angle.

                            But "John woos Mary" needs to be rethought? Really? Isn't it implied that if "John is wooing Mary", that Mary is making "some kind" of response to John? I guess you could have Mary in a coma, but that would just be creepy. (And don't mention "While You Were Sleeping".)

                            Anyway -- Peace -- I think this is an example of how something can be taken too far.
                            "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                            • #29
                              Re: Objectification of women

                              Originally posted by Staircaseghost View Post
                              Then maybe writing is not for you?
                              I've been writing stories for around fifty years. I think I'll just keep doing it. Not every reader reads every story trying to be offended -- so I think I'm OK there.
                              "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                              • #30
                                Re: Objectification of women

                                Originally posted by omjs View Post
                                I think you're being purposefully obtuse for...fun? Because you don't like the discussion?
                                Maybe some fun, but also to show the ridiculousness of going too far. You can't write a story where "John woos Mary" without some sort of reaction from Mary.

                                Or "logically" you might have:

                                "John woos Mary" (objectifying Mary)

                                "Mary rejects John" (objectifying John)

                                Just saying.
                                "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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