Click here for Done Deal Pro home page
Done Deal Pro Home Page

Loading

Go Back   Done Deal Pro Forums > Movies & Television > Films
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2018, 09:35 AM   #21
entlassen
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 564
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

I was expecting a bomb but apparently this made money, although, only around half what the originals made (so far). The complete lack of humor and cleverness in the trailers was the biggest problem for me. It came off as a cynical marketing gimmick.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with a female Oceans, but the cast seems random. Pitt, Clooney, Damon, etc. worked because they were huge stars at the time and it was fun seeing them play off one another. Aside from Ann Hathaway, who apparently plays the villain, are these actresses big draws nowadays? Why not Emma Stone, Alicia Vikander, and Margot Robbie as the leads? Probably would've been a fun watch.
entlassen is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 02:56 AM   #22
TheConnorNoden
Member
 
TheConnorNoden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

There's a hefty dose of male insecurity in this thread.
TheConnorNoden is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:37 AM   #23
scriptus
User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Montreal
Posts: 54
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
There's a hefty dose of male insecurity in this thread.
And the simple fact that a female versions of pictures like Ghostbusters or Ocean's 8 exist is expression of what? Just asking.
scriptus is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:39 AM   #24
StoryWriter
Member
 
StoryWriter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,132
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
There's a hefty dose of male insecurity in this thread.
Amateur psychology much?

I'd say the insecurity in this thread has more to do with some (not all) of the women, who acted in this movie, who -- for reasons, known only to themselves -- starting complaining that they were being shunned because they were women.

One actress even complained about the director, because he was (ick) a man instead of a woman and therefore, really wasn't qualified. A couple of other actresses (probably the most vocal whiners) weren't even in the movie.

Then the movie turned out to be at least a modest success. The jury is still out, but the studio is happy. It's altogether possible that a sequel will get greenlit. Then what happens with the whiner actresses, if it's the same director? That would be a fun time to negotiate, wouldn't it?

Anyway, exactly, who has the insecurity issues here?

Could it possibly be a few knee-jerking women, who apparently gave up on the movie and were insecurely blaming men for its demise, even before its successful release?

Well, that's just awkward, isn't it?
__________________
"I just couldn't live in a world without me."
StoryWriter is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:51 AM   #25
TheConnorNoden
Member
 
TheConnorNoden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Hahaha.
TheConnorNoden is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:15 AM   #26
scriptus
User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Montreal
Posts: 54
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
Hahaha.
No exclamation point - a sound of defeat.
scriptus is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 02:26 PM   #27
Bunker
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 557
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoryWriter View Post
Anyway, exactly, who has the insecurity issues here?

Could it possibly be a few knee-jerking women, who apparently gave up on the movie and were insecurely blaming men for its demise, even before its successful release?
This thread is really digging in on a couple comments that the actresses made during an incredibly long and highly-visible publicity tour. If that was the primary narrative of the publicity tour, then sure, maybe it would warrant a discussion of actors scapegoating society for "not getting" their films. But most of the promotion was of the "we had a lot of fun together" variety. It was clear the studio tried to steer clear of traps that the Ghostbusters promotion fell into.

So, I don't see what the big deal is. The fact that some people want to make a big deal of these statements (where the actresses appear to be responding to direct questions about comments that Brie Larson made) does seem to speak to a certain male insecurity.

I do think there is an interesting discussion to be had on the demographic makeup of reviewers and whether that influences a least a portion of the reviews. I tend to believe it does. I'm a liberal guy, but I wasn't interested in seeing Ocean's 8 because, while I'm interested in Vegas casinos, I'm not at all interested in the Met Gala. It's not a concept I connect with, and so I would probably be biased to give the film a lower score. Everyone has their tastes and there's value in having different views and life experiences represented in positions of power.

I do believe that in a perfect world, the demographics of reviewers (as well as the demographics of producers, studio execs, actors, directions, screenwriters, PAs, etc) would mirror the demographics of our society.

Whether or not that turns Ocean's 8 from a middling score to a good score is unknown. I'm not convinced that Ocean's 8, Ghostbusters, and A Wrinkle In Time are the battles that feminists want to be fighting, and as far as I can tell, they're not really digging in on those battle lines anyway.
Bunker is offline  
Old 06-27-2018, 06:28 PM   #28
StoryWriter
Member
 
StoryWriter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,132
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

@Bunker

I agree with a lot of what you said about leading, stupid questions, (paraphrased). I didn't go looking for this information -- Yahoo pushed it on me -- it was their lead story when I went to the Yahoo site. So maybe they're the ones with the agenda and the insecurity issues?

It just struck me as really ridiculous that a few women were whining and bitching about how they were mistreated in a movie, that was written by a woman co-author, and intentionally with parts for women. And it was a movie that the studio considered a success. If that isn't the definition of women's insecurity, I don't know what is.

My interest in the movie, as I mentioned before, was possibly seeing it as a rental since the trailer didn't look all that exciting to me. I probably wouldn't have bothered considering even that, except my wife and I like a lot of the movies Sandra Bullock has acted in.

I rented Ocean's 11 and wasn't that impressed with it either. Never bothered with 12 or 13. But that's me -- I've never been a fan of ensemble movies, in general.

As far as parity goes? It's still kind of a free country. Women control over half the wealth in the United States. There's plenty of scripts out there and plenty of talent -- someone just needs to spend the money and make the movies. As far as I know there's no law prohibiting women from doing that in the United States.

I've watched plenty of movies, that were written by men, directed by men and the main parts were acted by men. I thought a lot of these movies sucked. People have often disagreed with me -- sometimes vigorously. I've been accused of being an idiot, because "I didn't get it", or that "I wouldn't know a good movie if it bit me on the butt", or... whatever. But no one has ever accused me of disliking one of these movies because "I have something against men".

So what's wrong with a level playing field? If I think a movie that was written by women, directed by women and the main parts are acted by women sucks -- why can't I express that opinion without being accused of having something against women or of being a misogynist?

Just in case someone wants to misquote me -- I'm not claiming that Ocean's 8 sucks. I haven't seen it. I probably will rent it. I may even like it. I might think it sucks. If I do think it sucks -- will that automatically mean I have something against women?

More specifically -- do some people imagine it's impossible for an all women crew to fail if they make a movie?

I'm married to a woman. I have four grown daughters. (One I have admitted here and elsewhere, is a better writer than I am.) Four out of five full-length screenplays, I've started or completed have women leads. The majority of the dozens of short screenplays I've written have women leads.

What part of all of that means I have "male insecurity"?
__________________
"I just couldn't live in a world without me."
StoryWriter is offline  
Old 06-28-2018, 02:53 AM   #29
TheConnorNoden
Member
 
TheConnorNoden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoryWriter View Post
@Bunker

I agree with a lot of what you said about leading, stupid questions, (paraphrased). I didn't go looking for this information -- Yahoo pushed it on me -- it was their lead story when I went to the Yahoo site. So maybe they're the ones with the agenda and the insecurity issues?

It just struck me as really ridiculous that a few women were whining and bitching about how they were mistreated in a movie, that was written by a woman co-author, and intentionally with parts for women. And it was a movie that the studio considered a success. If that isn't the definition of women's insecurity, I don't know what is.

My interest in the movie, as I mentioned before, was possibly seeing it as a rental since the trailer didn't look all that exciting to me. I probably wouldn't have bothered considering even that, except my wife and I like a lot of the movies Sandra Bullock has acted in.

I rented Ocean's 11 and wasn't that impressed with it either. Never bothered with 12 or 13. But that's me -- I've never been a fan of ensemble movies, in general.

As far as parity goes? It's still kind of a free country. Women control over half the wealth in the United States. There's plenty of scripts out there and plenty of talent -- someone just needs to spend the money and make the movies. As far as I know there's no law prohibiting women from doing that in the United States.

I've watched plenty of movies, that were written by men, directed by men and the main parts were acted by men. I thought a lot of these movies sucked. People have often disagreed with me -- sometimes vigorously. I've been accused of being an idiot, because "I didn't get it", or that "I wouldn't know a good movie if it bit me on the butt", or... whatever. But no one has ever accused me of disliking one of these movies because "I have something against men".

So what's wrong with a level playing field? If I think a movie that was written by women, directed by women and the main parts are acted by women sucks -- why can't I express that opinion without being accused of having something against women or of being a misogynist?

Just in case someone wants to misquote me -- I'm not claiming that Ocean's 8 sucks. I haven't seen it. I probably will rent it. I may even like it. I might think it sucks. If I do think it sucks -- will that automatically mean I have something against women?

More specifically -- do some people imagine it's impossible for an all women crew to fail if they make a movie?

I'm married to a woman. I have four grown daughters. (One I have admitted here and elsewhere, is a better writer than I am.) Four out of five full-length screenplays, I've started or completed have women leads. The majority of the dozens of short screenplays I've written have women leads.

What part of all of that means I have "male insecurity"?
Still a lot of it to be honest. That was a really long post to explain your security which isn't really a great sign. And it's not to single you out as I thought most people posting were giving off that vibe.

The media will make more of an issue then there actually is but surely you can understand their frustration in that they want to make a film with women in mind and almost every pro critic is a white man.

If you think them complaining about how the film was handled or received amounted to unnecessary whining can we just mention those losers trying to get a Last Jedi remake off the ground? All these women want is an equal voice across the board which I think is fair.

I too only saw Ocean's 11 and wasn't thrilled so I've had no reason to watch any of the others. You can't be blamed for not being interested in a film that is in all likelihood just decent. It has been a pretty terrible summer compared to last year. What I don't get is that a film comes out that you have no interest in and don't plan on seeing yet you started a thread about it to say that they had no reason to complain.

Now this isn't aimed at you at all but does nobody see this happening EVERY time a film with a Black or Female cast comes out? I take a few months break and come back and the thread with the most posts is always s**t like this. If you don't believe me look back, the only times it won't be true is when the threads were deleted for getting too volatile. Who gives a s**t if they weren't happy on the film or happy with the industry in general? Let them have that. Why should that matter to us as men? We've had the very best of everything since the dawn of humanity.

I hate the attitude of people saying "ooh the PC police won't let me criticism a film wah wah wah". You can criticise anything as long as there's some logic behind it.

Things are not equal. Female writers are so much more likely to get pigeonholed and not afforded some of the freedoms of A-List men. Take Tarantino who almost crippled Uma Thurman and spat in her face on Kill Bill. Big pals with Weinstein. Unhealthy obsession with feet. That guy gets to make WHATEVER he wants on a massive budget. Name any female directors or writers that are afforded that freedom on a Tarantino budget. That should hopefully put things in perspective. Hollywood was originally dominated by Female writers in the 20s and 30s and then that was taken away from them. They've not been allowed to be that vocal about these things until about...now-ish, so let them complain if you want.

You can express dislike of a film but you said yourself that you haven't seen the film and haven't said anything bad about it. All your issues were with women complaining. I wouldn't accuse you of being misogynistic but I would be doing some soul searching to figure out why it bothered you at all, enough to start a thread about it.

Of course all women crews could fail. A Wrinkle in Time pretty much bombed and there wasn't really an uproar over it. That there is you feeling like the film industry is making it easier on them in some way. And what if it does? Everyone but white men have had to work twice as hard to get twice as little for as long as films have existed. If the tables turned it wouldn't be unfair. Plenty of mediocre white men have had things handed to them and it's about time that we earn it.

That last section sounds a bit like the old "I have a black friend" routine. You can write about women all you like but you can't deny that these women complaining got under your skin for some reason. Figure out why.
TheConnorNoden is offline  
Old 06-28-2018, 06:04 AM   #30
StoryWriter
Member
 
StoryWriter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,132
Default Re: Ocean's 8 -- Here We Go Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConnorNoden View Post
Still a lot of it to be honest. That was a really long post to explain your security which isn't really a great sign. And it's not to single you out as I thought most people posting were giving off that vibe.

And your post is short? Hmmm....

The media will make more of an issue then there actually is but surely you can understand their frustration in that they want to make a film with women in mind and almost every pro critic is a white man.

They specifically mentioned to pro critics that were featured on Rotten Tomatoes (at least what I quoted) and the men outnumbered the women 2 to 1.

But the part you seem to have missed is that the women pro critics were more critical of the movie than the men pro critics (by a slim margin). Eliminate all the men -- pretend they don't exist -- pay attention to the women only. Do that and the movie gets a LOWER score (slightly) on Rotten Tomatoes, not a higher score.

Another point I made that seems to be ignored is that the movie got a "Fresh" rating. It exceeded studio projections for opening numbers. It wasn't a failure. So why were ANY of the women whining about it?

Also, as I mentioned before -- the men and women pro critics mostly saw the same major flaw -- not enough at stake -- no real villain. Most thought the women did a good job with the thin material they had to work with.

But assume for the moment (and once again, that's not what I'm saying) the movie was a flat-out, dismal failure. Are you suggesting that women pro critics are allowed to say that, but men pro critics aren't?

Only men can criticize movies that are mostly men and only women can criticize movies that are mostly women? I don't think that's what you mean, but if it's what anybody is suggesting, then that's just asinine.


If you think them complaining about how the film was handled or received amounted to unnecessary whining can we just mention those losers trying to get a Last Jedi remake off the ground? All these women want is an equal voice across the board which I think is fair.

A couple of the women who were in the movie were whining about what, exactly? That they were given what was considered a strong female part in a successful movie? WTF is their problem? Anyway, that's what grabbed my attention and was the only reason I posted it. Most of the women who acted in the movie, didn't whine about it. In fact a couple women who whined the most, weren't even in the movie. Once again -- that shows a lot of insecurity.

Could you imagine Brad Pitt whining BECAUSE he was paid to act in Ocean's 11 and BECAUSE the movie was a success?


I too only saw Ocean's 11 and wasn't thrilled so I've had no reason to watch any of the others. You can't be blamed for not being interested in a film that is in all likelihood just decent. It has been a pretty terrible summer compared to last year. What I don't get is that a film comes out that you have no interest in and don't plan on seeing yet you started a thread about it to say that they had no reason to complain.

Enlighten me. What DID they have to complain about? That some misogynistic bastards cast these women in a woman driven movie that was at least a moderate success and will quite possibly spawn a sequel or two? How dare the man-controlled studio treat them so unfairly!

Now this isn't aimed at you at all but does nobody see this happening EVERY time a film with a Black or Female cast comes out? I take a few months break and come back and the thread with the most posts is always s**t like this. If you don't believe me look back, the only times it won't be true is when the threads were deleted for getting too volatile. Who gives a s**t if they weren't happy on the film or happy with the industry in general? Let them have that. Why should that matter to us as men? We've had the very best of everything since the dawn of humanity.

It doesn't matter -- as I said in my previous post it was just in my face -- pushed as a headline on Yahoo and I stupidly read it. Since, as I've mentioned a couple times before, this had an actress my wife and I have followed in other movies (Sandra Bullock) I was following this one a little more closely than a lot of theatrical releases.

I didn't and don't understand the whining. It's like if I get hired for a job -- a project that I enjoy -- we complete the project -- the company is happy and pays me good money. Then I BITCH about it? I mean, really, WTF?


I hate the attitude of people saying "ooh the PC police won't let me criticism a film wah wah wah". You can criticise anything as long as there's some logic behind it.

That's the problem in a nutshell. These women are complaining and there's no logical reason to complain. Did they WANT the movie to be a failure? I have no idea.

Things are not equal. Female writers are so much more likely to get pigeonholed and not afforded some of the freedoms of A-List men. Take Tarantino who almost crippled Uma Thurman and spat in her face on Kill Bill. Big pals with Weinstein. Unhealthy obsession with feet. That guy gets to make WHATEVER he wants on a massive budget. Name any female directors or writers that are afforded that freedom on a Tarantino budget. That should hopefully put things in perspective. Hollywood was originally dominated by Female writers in the 20s and 30s and then that was taken away from them. They've not been allowed to be that vocal about these things until about...now-ish, so let them complain if you want.

Staying on point. THIS movie was written specifically as a woman driven movie. So, exactly the opposite of what you're describing. Something you would think the actresses involved would all celebrate -- but instead a couple of them whined about it. Once again -- am I missing something? What is the problem they have with this specific movie?

You can express dislike of a film but you said yourself that you haven't seen the film and haven't said anything bad about it. All your issues were with women complaining. I wouldn't accuse you of being misogynistic but I would be doing some soul searching to figure out why it bothered you at all, enough to start a thread about it.

I guess it bothered me because here's a movie while not earth-shattering, was written for actresses as the leads -- which could be seen as step in the right direction to correct some of the wrongs you describe above. And a couple of the women complained about it. It's just strange.

Of course all women crews could fail. A Wrinkle in Time pretty much bombed and there wasn't really an uproar over it. That there is you feeling like the film industry is making it easier on them in some way. And what if it does? Everyone but white men have had to work twice as hard to get twice as little for as long as films have existed. If the tables turned it wouldn't be unfair. Plenty of mediocre white men have had things handed to them and it's about time that we earn it.

I was a phone man for 35 years. Recently laid off because I got old, along with about 16,000 other old techs that got laid off at the same time. I got into phone work by hustling. One temporary phone job, which led to another temporary phone job. The second temporary job was supposed to last for six weeks and I ran my butt off. Two of the other white temporary workers told me to slow down -- that I was working my out of a job. I told them: "No, I was working my way into one."

And I did. Strangely enough the other two white guys didn't. You would think it would be automatic, since they were privileged. Eventually I was hired full time. Two hard workers -- a black woman from Compton and a Mexican guy, who was the first one in his family who didn't work in the fields were also hired. This was in 1985, in Ventura County, Southern California.

I quit high school the day I turned 16. I worked my way up to a Senior Technician and earned $70,000 a year, without a high school diploma. Several times I had to find work in different states, usually when the company I was working for, filed for bankruptcy or was bought out. I was able to keep a roof over our heads and my family fed. And I hustled the whole time.

So any information you have have on that white, male privilege thing would be appreciated. Do they drop the money on your front porch, or what?


That last section sounds a bit like the old "I have a black friend" routine. You can write about women all you like but you can't deny that these women complaining got under your skin for some reason. Figure out why.

The "why" is easy. It bugs me that these women are whining and bitching when they have nothing to whine and bitch about. I thought that much was obvious.
I've said the same thing over and over again. The message length seems to be growing -- so there's probably not much point in me responding, unless you have something completely new and earth-shattering to say.

So if you want you can have the last shot.

Peace.
__________________
"I just couldn't live in a world without me."
StoryWriter is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Done Deal Pro

eXTReMe Tracker