How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by bioprofessor View Post
    It is quite clear, however, that certain successful structures and patterns to story writing exist. It is also true that many practitioners have brought them to light over the centuries. The struggle to explain phenomena and identify patterns is what we humans do (albeit, not always successfully). It's a noble endeavor.

    To use a biological analogy (of course), the processes of natural selection and evolution are older than life itself - in place long before we humans were a thing. Yet, we give Darwin credit for discovering and describing these natural phenomena. Since then, we have discovered significant variations to Darwin's basic precepts, but those do not negate the foundations of organic evolution. In that sense, Blake Snyder and Charles Darwin are similar - though I think Darwin was a bit more humble.
    Bio -- umm. Comparing Snyder to Darwin? Seriously?
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      O.M.G. What amazes me only a tad more than your pretzel logic is that Jeff didn't rip you a new one. Clearly you're dealing with a kinder, gentler Lowell these days.
      Clearly you're an expert on all things Lowell.
      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        Originally posted by Takeshiro View Post
        Working writers, pals with working writers are saying:
        We don't use template.

        Never-sold-anything writers, pals with internet and never-sold-anything writers are saying:
        Working writers are using template. I read it online.

        Yup.

        Kudos to Ronaldhino and Jeff L, who give on their free time to share some knowledge with people who don't want to hear the truth. Like I said before, it's great, cause it means less competition.

        As for me, I don't use save the cat/field/mckee. I find it to be too rigid.

        I worked with two Never-sold-anything writers spoon fed by one of these, and it was awful. They know how to (re) create mediocre ideas. It was always flat. They could (re) create logical characters. No sparks. No identity. Nothing. I had to teach em other ways, but they still argued with me because "XXXX" said so.

        I think it can still be helpful, not for writing, but as a tool for rewriting. Yet, you could just watch movies to see how to fix your script instead of using templates.

        The first script I sold contained no Antagonist, no "strategy", no "dark night of the soul". It received a 9/10 on the blacklist, and got sold. Should I rewrite it so it fit the almighty template?

        In my humble opinion, it's sad how newcomers focus on exactly what you don't have to focus on : structure, template, "do a better movie than Transformers". Get this : We don't care. We don't care about structure, about if the act one break is on page 25, if there is an "epiphany" on page 60. We care about what's your emotional point of view about the world. That's the only thing that matters.
        First, congrats on your sale. Second, re BF, yes, yes, yes.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
          Clearly you're an expert on all things Lowell.
          I will be ignoring you from now on.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

          Comment


          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            Bio -- umm. Comparing Snyder to Darwin? Seriously?
            No, that's a simplistic and superficial reading of what I described.

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            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              I will be ignoring you from now on.
              That's too bad. Things were just starting to get fun.
              "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by bioprofessor View Post
                No, that's a simplistic and superficial reading of what I described.
                Well, I disagree with what you described but I didn't go into it more because I'm in the process of getting a kid off to school. I'll be back later.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                  Well, I disagree with what you described but I didn't go into it more because I'm in the process of getting a kid off to school. I'll be back later.
                  Me, too (2 of them).

                  To clarify, I certainly wasn't trying to draw an equivalency between Snyder's summations and contributions and Darwin's. I tried to explain how their motivations were similar, i.e. trying to find patterns in an effort to better understand phenomena that occur in nature and human creation. As to whether Snyder succeeded... I'll leave that up to the pros. But I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that certain patterns and structure exist in good writing.

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                  • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Originally posted by bioprofessor View Post
                    Me, too (2 of them).

                    To clarify, I certainly wasn't trying to draw an equivalency between Snyder's summations and contributions and Darwin's. I tried to explain how their motivations were similar, i.e. trying to find patterns in an effort to better understand phenomena that occur in nature and human creation. As to whether Snyder succeeded... I'll leave that up to the pros. But I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that certain patterns and structure exist in good writing.

                    I did understand your point that it's human nature to seek patterns to explain phenomena. I think it's because the human mind and ego seek to impose reason on experience to keep chaos at bay. This human desire to discover why inspired science which has brought us to a more enlightened understanding of our world. But it also inspired superstition and religion, (i.e. "This sacred mandala will protect me from harm," or "God is mad at us.").

                    Setting aside any speculation about Snyder's motivation, I think we can agree he did not employ the scientific method to develop his rigid (IMO) by-the-page beat sheet. If he had he would've seen not only its many flaws but the fact that it's far from the last word on screenwriting (as the book's subtitle implies; which I think is very misleading to beginners). What he did do is borrow heavily from Joseph Campbell in the most cursory way then whipped up his template (I linked it earlier) which I'm sure would've horrified Campbell if hadn't died before STC was published.

                    Now, way before I tried my hand at screenwriting, I read an interesting book by one of Campbell's students: The Mythic Imagination by Stephen Larsen. Larsen documented dreams of people from various demographics and found "stories" rife with Greek and Roman myths and symbology. To ensure he wasn't getting skewed results from people who may have read these myths, he included in his sample the dreams of people with very little education and young children. The kids' dreams are pretty amazing -- mythic tales rife with theme.

                    What I came away with was that the impulse to tell stories is somehow imprinted in our DNA. I also suspect storytelling may be crucial to our mental health. As a parent you know many children, if not all children, become compelled to tell stories before they can read. Their tales have structure, theme, and a moral to the story.

                    Sure, one could say kids do this because we read them stories early on and it has nothing to do with DNA. That's fine too. It still supports the idea we all know far more about characters, symbolism and structure than we think we do because we're drenched in stories at a very young age.

                    So why am I so anti-Save The Cat yet okay with Field and other gurus? Because my personal experience with the book set me back at a time when I was progressing at a good clip. And it took me a while to see it and then get it out of my head. I'll share that in another post for anyone who may get value from it.
                    Last edited by sc111; 11-18-2015, 06:49 AM.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      It's very exhausting to discuss with you guys, because whenever I disagree with you, it feels like you are pushing me to the other side of the argument. Let me share my process with you, so you can decide for yourself what to believe:

                      In the beginning, I'm trying to create a great film concept. It all starts with the idea. This is my film's plot in one line. Some people call this "logline", but I prefer to reserve that for selling the script, because at this point, it's just a film idea that you don't have to show anyone. Now I start exploring this idea ...

                      First, I write a little essay about three pages :
                      1. What are the possibilities of this idea? What do I want to have and see in this film (images, themes, words of dialogue, characters, scenes, whatever)?
                      1. What are the challenges? What is it that will be hard to accomplish, but that will inspire me through the process?
                      2. What are the problems and confusions? What are the things that I don't know how to solve yet?
                      Second, I try to come up with a story strategy:

                      Considering the film idea or "logline" is WHAT I want to tell, I write down HOW I could tell it, also using one line. There will be a lot of possibilities.


                      That was the creative part. Now begins the analytic part:
                      • I pick the best story strategy.
                      • I write down the main character, the main action (fighting in an action film, escaping in a horror film, something more specific in a drama), the central conflict (what's it all about?) and some possibilities for a character change.
                      You will quickly see if this film concept works. If it doesn't, I move on to another film idea.


                      Mind you, these are all just IDEAS. Everything can change in the process, but having them written down means there's always something I can fall back on, like a safety net. If I did all that, I should have a solid foundation to begin the work on the script.

                      In the next step, I will begin sketching some scenes.
                      Last edited by Yaso; 11-18-2015, 12:31 PM.

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                      • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        I don't think this is where the others disagree with you. Most of the disagreement comes from the rigid pages-counting templates provided by the "gurus". What you wrote was your process, that's great if it works for you.

                        I don't think anyone will disagree with you on this, as it's something that works for you.
                        The question is : Do you work in the business?

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                        • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Originally posted by Takeshiro View Post
                          I don't think this is where the others disagree with you. Most of the disagreement comes from the rigid pages-counting templates provided by the "gurus". What you wrote was your process, that's great if it works for you.

                          I don't think anyone will disagree with you on this, as it's something that works for you.
                          I've always been against counting pages.

                          About the character's STRATEGY though: That's everything your MC does to reach his goal. It can be instinctive or intellectual. It can be simple or complex. It can be highly focused or totally vague, but without action nothing will happen in your movie.

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                          • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                            I admire the effort, Jeff. But there are a few factors making it difficult for me to accept this data:

                            *Your question asked, when they start writing their screenplays, if they "fill in" something to show where beats go, and thus, physically write something down -- which they may not do even if they have the beats in their head. Resulting in a "no" answer.

                            *Your question specifically asked if they use a "formula". Given the stigma around this word, it wouldn't surprise me if that would've made some hesitant to say "yes", even if they do use beats in some fashion.

                            *Your question asked if this thing they use identifies "what kind of characters" they should have. I don't even do that when I'm beating things out, so it wouldn't surprise me if that resulted in a "no" response.

                            *The survey wasn't anonymous, meaning the writers knew who they were sending their response to. That very likely led to a possible bias in the results, with respondents providing the answer they thought you'd want to hear.

                            *There's a strong possibility that many of these individuals are friends/close associates of yours, meaning they are likely like-minded, making it less likely that the group is a representative writer sample. The fact that they are, as you say, "in the top 5 or 10 percent, earnings wise, of all the members of the WGA", makes them even less representative.

                            In other words, the survey design was rather problematic, which makes its results questionable at best. But still, I appreciate it
                            Please, tell me this was some sort of joke... Is this person serious? I sure hope not. it's obvious now that no matter what evidence you bring, this guy isn't having it. Even if it is factual...
                            Fiction writers are demigods among men...

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                            • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

                              "I came here for a good argument."
                              "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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                              • Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

                                "I came here for a good argument."
                                And it won't be the last time either. This seems to be the bread and butter of the forum.

                                .

                                Michael Arndt uses a model to get through Act I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6mSdlfpYLU

                                Jeff's 73.9% probably doesn't use that either, but it seems to help Michael.
                                Story Structure 1
                                Story Structure 2
                                Story Structure 3

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