How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

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  • #16
    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

    Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
    Your story is the same way. By a certain point in the story, the audience will expect the story to be at a certain temperature at a certain point. 15 - 20 pages in, the audience expects a spike in temperature. If you don't have it, the story will feel cold.
    Ah, I just disagree with this. I think temperature is determined by content, not page count. I've had producers tell me to build things out where I've tried to rush to meet those page counts and it just proved to me that the set up is more organic than that.

    If your break is at 20, 30, 35 etc it doesn't matter as long as the story dictates it. That's where the attention of the writer should be.

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    • #17
      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

      Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
      This has been bothering me. My latest script was criticized for slow pace in act two, but it's structured nearly perfectly. Act II break is pg 28. Midpoint is on pg 55 out of 110. And it intensifies in its action accordingly.
      The dreaded second act drag. Always a challenge. It's what's happening between pages 28 and 55 -- nearly 30 minutes of screen time -- that can be terribly draggy if the writer is not (ideally) advancing plot and character simultaneously.

      This is why I like the sequence method. Eight sequences (2 in act 1, 4 in act 2, 2 in act 3) that work sort of like mini movies each with their own goal and setbacks driving character and plot development.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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      • #18
        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

        I disagree that all writers are just going along on gut feelings. There is an actual craft to screenwriting, and some people are going to be more technical than others. Also, seriously, can we as a group stop going "Just be good" and pretending that's advice? It's not useful.

        Personally I like thinking in terms of reveals as well as sequences, as others have mentioned. Sometimes I'll list out all the beats that I think "should" happen between two plot points, then I go back through and twist a bunch of them. Lately when I'm doing notecards or outlines for myself, I'll also write out what each scene is accomplishing - plot-wise, character-wise, etc. If each moment doesn't have some purpose that's moving the story forward, it's almost definitely going to get cut.

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        • #19
          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

          i remember Bill Martell, can't remember if I read it here or on his website, but you should also have someone cool happen on every single page. Whether its great dialogue, or some little mystery or an interesting visual, that will help keep the reader engaged between the bigger moments.

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          • #20
            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

            Originally posted by omjs View Post
            I disagree that all writers are just going along on gut feelings. There is an actual craft to screenwriting, and some people are going to be more technical than others. Also, seriously, can we as a group stop going "Just be good" and pretending that's advice? It's not useful.

            Personally I like thinking in terms of reveals as well as sequences, as others have mentioned. Sometimes I'll list out all the beats that I think "should" happen between two plot points, then I go back through and twist a bunch of them. Lately when I'm doing notecards or outlines for myself, I'll also write out what each scene is accomplishing - plot-wise, character-wise, etc. If each moment doesn't have some purpose that's moving the story forward, it's almost definitely going to get cut.
            I don't know what your experience is, I can only relay mine but I would argue following your gut is more useful than arbitrary page numbers that don't necessarily determine if you've written a compelling story. I used to feel like that but came to a different conclusion based on working with very established professionals. Pace is relative to the story so that throws page numbers out the window. There are young writers who may create something really interesting but decide to scrap it because it doesn't happen within the first 15 or 20 - having read some of the advice here and trying conformity over creativity. So respectfully I disagree, but would agree with your point that some writers are more technical than others and that's perfectly ok too. Just my experience for whatever that's worth.

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            • #21
              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

              Originally posted by madworld View Post
              I don't know what your experience is, I can only relay mine but I would argue following your gut is more useful than arbitrary page numbers that don't necessarily determine if you've written a compelling story. I used to feel like that but came to a different conclusion based on working with very established professionals. Pace is relative to the story so that throws page numbers out the window. There are young writers who may create something really interesting but decide to scrap it because it doesn't happen within the first 15 or 20 - having read some of the advice here and trying conformity over creativity. So respectfully I disagree, but would agree with your point that some writers are more technical than others and that's perfectly ok too. Just my experience for whatever that's worth.
              I mean, it's not one or the other. If you're ONLY listening to gut feelings or ONLY doing a paint-by-number thing, then either way you're unlikely to come up with a script that other people want to read. You have to get a general feel for structure and expectations from a technical point of view, then know how to tweak it as needed. Often gut feelings only even come after you've really internalized some of this technical stuff - I would bet that the reason it "feels" like a character needs to be introduced at a particular point in the story is because you know that's when they usually come in.

              It's like any other kind of creative endeavor - a combination of technical skills and instinctual artistry is what it really takes to get to the top. Knowing the rules, and also knowing when to break the rules.

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              • #22
                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                Originally posted by omjs View Post
                I mean, it's not one or the other. If you're ONLY listening to gut feelings or ONLY doing a paint-by-number thing, then either way you're unlikely to come up with a script that other people want to read. You have to get a general feel for structure and expectations from a technical point of view, then know how to tweak it as needed. Often gut feelings only even come after you've really internalized some of this technical stuff - I would bet that the reason it "feels" like a character needs to be introduced at a particular point in the story is because you know that's when they usually come in.

                It's like any other kind of creative endeavor - a combination of technical skills and instinctual artistry is what it really takes to get to the top. Knowing the rules, and also knowing when to break the rules.
                I hear you but imo craft isn't about hitting numbers. That isn't having good structure. Fulfillment of good structure is a lot more, and that has to do with development of your characters and story. It lands where it lands based on proper development.

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                • #23
                  Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                  I'd much rather talk theoretically, about what makes a scene interesting, how to confound reader expectations, etc, etc (NMS's post is a great example, among others) than to read a minute by minute breakdown of where things are going to happen, even if that is more "specific."

                  Not to pick on UpandComing, but the specific advice that the a writer should "have something really interesting happening every 15 minutes" feels like death to me. If I have to wait fifteen minutes between interesting events, I am out before I make it to minute fifteen, let alone minute 120.

                  I think that's the danger of these formulas. Writers look at these signposts and try to write towards the next one. As long as I keep my train on the rails, I will have a screenplay! Why, with a 90 minute movie, I just have to come up with six interesting things! Wait, I flipped the script three times in act two - why did it get a 6 on the BlackList?!

                  Every scene (or sequence) should have something surprising in it, every scene should have a beginning, middle and end, it should end in a way that asks a question that pulls you to the next scene...

                  Dan Brown gets a lot of shit. But The Da Vinci Code was a master class in writing chapters that didn't feel unfinished, but kept you from putting down the book. "I'll just finish this one and go to bed... where the fuck did that come from?! One more!"

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                  • #24
                    Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                    Haven't read any of the other replies, so this may echo someone else.

                    I think it's *not* new information, since every single line and action and everything else needs to be giving us new information and *evolving* the story... so for me it's frequency of exciting stuff happening. Tied to whatever the genre is. Though I had already developed this theory from timing movies as a wee lad, an interview with producer Joel Silver solidified it. He says you need a "whammo" within every ten pages/ten minutes of a film - a big exciting scene. I probably had timed some Silver films and noticed there was an action scene within every ten minutes.

                    When I wrote an article for Script Mag on pacing, I decided to use *romantic comedies* (completely not my genre) as examples - and discovered that they had a big funny scene within every ten minutes which brought the characters together and then pulled them apart. WHEN HARRY MET SALLY, WHILE YOU WERE SLEEPING, and MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING were my examples for that article - and each of the three had an exciting "genre scene" within every ten minutes - like clockwork. Like a heartbeat.

                    And that's what I think pacing is - the heartbeat of your story. If you are writing a comedy, a comedy set piece every 10 pages/minutes. If you are writing a drama (and I timed some of those, just for fun), a big dramatic moment every ten pages (Tennessee Williams seems to have a big dramatic reveal or argument in his plays).

                    In my Act Two Blue Book I have an expanded version of that Script Mag article, and I also look at Deadlines in Michael Crichton based movies.

                    Bill
                    Free Script Tips:
                    http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                    • #25
                      Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      Not to pick on UpandComing, but the specific advice that the a writer should "have something really interesting happening every 15 minutes" feels like death to me. If I have to wait fifteen minutes between interesting events, I am out before I make it to minute fifteen, let alone minute 120.

                      Every scene (or sequence) should have something surprising in it, every scene should have a beginning, middle and end, it should end in a way that asks a question that pulls you to the next scene.
                      Jeff, while I respect much of what you have to say, I think you are misconstruing what I said. I wasn't implying that as long as writers create a big moment every 15 minutes, they can neglect/put less effort into what happens in between. Knowing how competitive this field is, writers should put effort into making every single scene, every single page, every single line stand out in some way.

                      That said, stories are inherently more effective (and pack more punch) when major events happen at certain points. This pacing helps to give stories a feel of continued momentum. This is not some "rule"; I think it's a concept inherent to storytelling. I understand the aversion to formula, but I think it's kind of narrow-minded to reject advice out of hand just because there's a number attached to it.

                      Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                      Though I had already developed this theory from timing movies as a wee lad, an interview with producer Joel Silver solidified it. He says you need a "whammo" within every ten pages/ten minutes of a film - a big exciting scene. I probably had timed some Silver films and noticed there was an action scene within every ten minutes.

                      And that's what I think pacing is - the heartbeat of your story. If you are writing a comedy, a comedy set piece every 10 pages/minutes. If you are writing a drama (and I timed some of those, just for fun), a big dramatic moment every ten pages (Tennessee Williams seems to have a big dramatic reveal or argument in his plays).
                      This is exactly what I mean. There's nothing wrong with having an unofficial guideline to help writers who may be struggling with pacing issues. Someone asked for specific advice, so I offered a technique that I've used with success; that's all. And I stand by what I said.
                      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

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                      • #26
                        Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                        Since I'm still a newb at this, I'll use my experience with movies...

                        If I ever find myself asking "Why the f*ck am I watching this?" or "What the f*ck am I watchin?g"... Then I know, the pacing of that movie, is off.

                        Given the vast amounts of movies online, at times I may just play a movie based on genre or rating alone...

                        Not knowing ANYTHING about the log line is a test to the movie itself.

                        If within around 15-20 mins something has not happened, or I still don't know what the movie is about.... AUTOMATICALLY My question will be "What the f*ck am I watching?"

                        If I do know what it is about, and it makes it past the 15-20 min mark, then I'll settle in again, but if its horror and AGAIN I find myself not paying attention after 10 more minutes because there has not been one horror thing I jump into the "Why the f*ck am I watching this" mode..

                        So, I'd imagine pacing has to do, with YOU not letting your audience ever settle in enough to wonder "Why" or "what" they are watching.

                        Continuously
                        answer those questions before they ask.
                        "We're going to be rich!" - 1/2 hr COMEDY written/directed/edited by me, I also act in it.
                        SUBTITLED
                        Episode 1 (Beef pills)
                        Episode 2 (African commercial)
                        Episode 3 (Brenda's rescue)

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                        • #27
                          Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                          Just want to clarify what I mean by sequence method. I'm not referring to those charts that dictate what action 'should' go into each sequence. That's just more save-the-cat paint by numbers nonsense.

                          I see each sequence as a 10-12 minute mini-movie with a beginning-middle-end serving a goal that progresses the story with, as Jeff said, a sort of cliffhanger that moves the story into the next sequence. Within that 10-12 minutes each scene has a beginning-middle-end (with cliffhanger if possible).

                          For me, this keeps the story focused on manageable segments that force me to ask myself: "What do I need to accomplish in this 10 minutes of screen time?"

                          Conversely, when looking at screen time in larger chunks of time (let's say, Act 1 at 25-30 minutes) I'm too likely to start meandering with the narrative and weighing down the pace.

                          The thing is, screenwriting has a lot more going on under the hood that one notices at first glance. That's why, myself included, many writers start off thinking, "How hard can this be?" Answer -- very.

                          Re: Foxhound's post: I have a hunch the reader's comments may be linked to slowing down the pace to add in exposition/backstory that was not evident through action in Act 1.
                          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                          • #28
                            Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                            Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
                            That said, stories are inherently more effective (and pack more punch) when major events happen at certain points. This pacing helps to give stories a feel of continued momentum. This is not some "rule"; I think it's a concept inherent to storytelling. I understand the aversion to formula, but I think it's kind of narrow-minded to reject advice out of hand just because there's a number attached to it.
                            Except, there are plenty of really successful movies that ignore those points completely. They happen at wildly different times, or don't happen at all, or happen multiple times.

                            "Taken" comes to mind - it doesn't start with a huge action scene to grab attention - it's fifteen minutes of a broken dad and daughter relationship. There's one mild moment of action - when he saves the singer. Then his daughter is taken, and the rest of the movie is basically one long second act.

                            And that second act starts with what you list as what should happen at the 55 minute mark - there is no turning back. He never has to recommit himself to solving his goal at the 85 minute mark - he is fully committed from the moment his daughter is taken. He has no dark night of the soul, or whatever catchphrase Save The Cat uses, it's just a second act of him beating all obstacles without ever doubting himself.

                            The third act is really a coda - a couple of scenes of him back home.

                            I'm not saying ignore three act structure. I'm not saying don't look at movies you love and learn how they keep things fresh and interesting. I'm saying that putting up a road map and writing with those goals in mind can lead to trouble. Look at what someone said earlier in this thread: he doesn't understand why he's getting the reaction he is to his script, because his act two break is on page 28 and his midpoint is on page 55 out of 110 pages.

                            And even ignoring everything else, here's something to think about: the vast majority of people breaking in buy Save The Cat or some other blueprint for scriptwriting. Which means that all their scripts feel very much alike. I'd argue it's much harder to stand out from the pack and get work as a writer when you're writing the same script as everyone else.

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                            • #29
                              Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post

                              I'm not saying ignore three act structure. I'm not saying don't look at movies you love and learn how they keep things fresh and interesting.
                              This.

                              Any time somebody shows you a structure, it's useful to look at a bunch of your favorite films and see how well it fits, and how well it doesn't. One problem I see a lot is that people read a structure in a book or get it in a lecture, and then they start twisting their understanding of what films do and to fit that structure.

                              Let's take a simple example: World War Z. If we talked about the act break as the "point of no return, where the hero can't go back home again," then clearly that moment is like, what, minute 5 when the zombies show up.

                              My own structural thinking would define that as the inciting incident, but clearly, once there are zombies running around everywhere, the heroes can't go back to their "normal world." But most people who take a dramatic-question based analysis to the acts wouldn't define act 2 as starting until Brad Pitt takes the mission and starts flying around the world.

                              And it's not that I'm right or that somebody else is wrong. It's that all these screenwriting terms and benchmarks are abstractions. It's the difference between theory and practice: theory tells us that a lead ball falls as fast as a feather ... but then we drop them and the feather captures a draft of air, and ends up hitting the ground later.

                              In the feather-vs-lead-ball example, we've abstracted out a piece of information which is that the theory only holds true in a vacuum. In screenwriting, the information those theories and benchmarks abstract out is the actual content of the scenes.

                              And this is why it's so hard to give specific, useful advice on an abstract, theoretical level (although wow NMS did a fantastic job of it) - because every scene presents its own unique challenges. Sometimes the problem is too much salt. Sometimes the problem is too little salt. But sometimes the problem is too much tarragon which changes how much salt you want - so if all you're paying attention to is salt, you'll be confused. "This is less salt than I used yesterday ... why does it taste too salty?"

                              I can't tell you how often I've had the problem of a section of script dragging, and the solution is to make it longer: to make it more compelling, more engaging, more complex. That's extremely counter-intuitive and sometimes it would be the exact wrong prescription, but sometimes it's the way to fix the problem. But how do you give general advice about a situation where the solution is sometimes to cut and sometimes to add?

                              You have to look at your own script and say, "where is it lagging?" and then you have to look at those spots and say, "why is it lagging here?"

                              This is frustrating, because it's not simple. We all want easy answers to these questions.

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                              • #30
                                Re: How can screenwriters control pace? Any thoughts on unintentional slowness?

                                Slow pacing can come when the writer only does one thing at a time: exposition, character development, plot, humor. Scenes should perform multiple functions, at least two of those elements in each, and preferably more. I find, for myself, that slow pace is often the result of single use scenes, and there's often a corollary scene nearby that can be blended in to give me a Leatherman tool instead of a simple pocket knife.

                                Someone mentioned finding the function each scene through analysis earlier, and this kind of rigorous work is valuable. You may have to scrap several single function scenes and build from scratch. Be ruthless with your own work.

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