Objectification of women

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  • Re: Objectification of women

    Stories objectify women all the time, men too when needed. Sometimes its for eye candy in to a teenage sex comedy, maybe its a story of how a man is a habitual offender of objectifying women. I imagine you'd see it there too.

    The real question here is, can a man write a central female character that is essential to the plot and have women readers resonate with her?

    99% of female writers will fail at this too. Do male writers envision more for a female character than a simple love interest? Most times not. Its rare you see a story where the female lead is running around figuring things out. A lot of that is numbers. Male lead movies make more money. To the guys in suits the business of movies comes before the art of movies.

    Writers that know how to create a character, understand their connection to the plot, develop speech patterns and mannerisms, a writer that knows how to do that well all of a sudden won't lose those skills cause the character is suddenly female.

    If I was a young writer trying to break in right now, I would write something that had a Black lead around the age of 35 - 45. A real struggle that allows the actor to show his emotions and make some tough decisions.

    Why? Because of what is going on at the Oscar's. Not enough minority representation in the nominees and its not the voter's fault. Hollywood is as liberal of an industry as you can be. Who do you want the voter's to vote for? Kevin Hart in ride along 2? Only a certain type of roles get nominated for the acting Oscars. You have to portray a character that goes through a resonating struggle and expresses deep emotion. That emotion can be tears or laughter. A decent script with a black lead may sell before a decent script with a white lead in the next trend of sales.

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    • Re: Objectification of women

      Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
      Before this thread gets archived, I just wanted to express some of the frustration that I feel over being told *how* I should be writing female characters.

      It begins with the obvious- a female character should not exist simply to be objectified. She shouldn't be a 'goal' for the protagonist, or a prize, or a Madonna or a whore or a nurturer or a damsel in distress.

      Oh, and she should have a few dialogue scenes where she interacts with another female character, where they actually discuss something besides the male protagonist.

      Oh, and by the way, even if you write a well rounded, fully realized female character, who's complicated and nuanced and mysterious, she has to have her own story and 'journey' (aka The Trinity Syndrome).

      So now we are no longer talking about a supporting character anymore (by the way, there's nothing wrong with a supporting character... Ned Beatty won an Oscar for showing up in Network for three minutes in a cameo that has yet to be topped by anyone in 40 years).

      So what this all reads like (to me) is that you must either have a female protagonist, or at the very least, duel M/F protags with equal story time, or you haved failed.

      And I reject this conclusion, to the point where I would be happy to spend the rest of my life writing stories about prisons, army platoons and the mafia, and never write another female character.

      (Obviously, I don't really mean that, but you can understand my frustration and pushback at behind told how to create characters in my own world and in my own head and with my blank paper. Enough.)

      Basically, we are getting so carried away with the diversity argument that people are saying there should be no more stories about white males at all.

      You probably think I'm making that up, but

      http://www.indiewire.com/article/how...on-tv-20160215


      I'm not.

      Obviously, everyone's getting carried away on both sides (to the point where someone as respected as Meryl Streep is doing damage control every time she makes an offhand comment?) and needs to take a breath and dial it down.
      Again (as I said back when this thread was mildly on topic), these types of criticisms are best applied in aggregate rather than to one particular script. The Bechdel Test works as a barometer for Hollywood in general because so many films fail it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about an individual film. The idea is to get people to realize that there is a widespread problem, then start thinking of ways to be part of the solution. Which, yes, involves choices made on individual projects. But it doesn't mean that every single project has to address every single problem. If you're encountering that, it's because you're running into a problem that what I call "Twitter Activism" has in general - everything gets distilled down to the shortest, quippiest soundbite imaginable, and then it becomes impossibly unrealistic. It happens on both sides of every single argument that's ever happened on the internet.

      Anyway, in general I urge people, when discussions about diversity in film come up, to think of it in terms of a broad macro-level problem and really internalize some complexity on the subject, rather than either slamming everything that isn't perfectly diverse or rejecting the notion out of hand because they think it sets up an impossible standard and/or is a personal affront.

      ...

      Speaking of internet arguments, though, you guys do understand that you can just choose not to engage with people online, right? I honestly don't understand how the last 10 pages of this thread even happened.

      Comment


      • Re: Objectification of women

        Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
        So now we are no longer talking about a supporting character anymore (by the way, there's nothing wrong with a supporting character... Ned Beatty won an Oscar for showing up in Network for three minutes in a cameo that has yet to be topped by anyone in 40 years).

        So what this all reads like (to me) is that you must either have a female protagonist, or at the very least, duel M/F protags with equal story time, or you have failed.
        Kudos. That is what I was trying to get at a few pages back, but you put it more pithily:

        http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/...7&postcount=83


        Originally posted by omjs View Post
        Again (as I said back when this thread was mildly on topic), these types of criticisms are best applied in aggregate rather than to one particular script.
        I would agree with this, if followed -- i.e., so long as foisting main-character requirements onto supporting female characters does not become pervasive.

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        • Re: Objectification of women

          Originally posted by karsten View Post
          I would agree with this, if followed -- i.e., so long as foisting main-character requirements onto supporting female characters does not become pervasive.
          I just don't understand how "There is a widespread diversity problem in Hollywood that could potentially be addressed, in part, at the script level" becomes "Every single script must now conform to X Y and Z standards or you are a complete bigot." I've never seen anyone seriously make the latter assertion, but lots of people seem to react like that's what you're saying if you bring up the subject. It certainly happened in this thread.

          I guess my point is, if you think that's what people are telling you, maybe just take a deep breath and a step back for a minute? It's OK to recognize a problem without believing you're personally responsible for 100% of it.

          Comment


          • Re: Objectification of women

            I find it hilarious that saying "just make sure your female characters don't exist only to be prizes/sexual objects for your male characters" gets the response "THE PC POLICE ARE MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO WRITE!!!!" Or "I'm not sexist, but if women would stop only doing rom coms and write like men..."

            Though the part of this thread that really depresses me is the feeling that "other screenwriters aren't my people. I owe them nothing." I come to these forums because I love lively discussions about my craft with other people who are also passionate about it.

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            • Re: Objectification of women

              Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
              Basically, we are getting so carried away with the diversity argument that people are saying there should be no more stories about white males at all.
              Nobody's getting carried away . . . except the aggrieved male-ish/mulish voices who seem to think that this kind of analysis of how women are portrayed in media has to be all about them.

              I don't think that there should be "no more stories about white males at all." But I wouldn't mind a moratorium for a while. There are so many neglected female characters, female-centered genres, and historical figures I'd love to see more of.

              And with 19% of all working screenwriters being women (just one figure, there are other ways of calculating it), and even smaller percentages of women in leading roles in films (both studio and indie), this discussion is very worthwhile. I'm sorry to see it go into the gutter with some of these asinine generalizations about "foisting" men to write their characters according to prescribed standards.

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              • Re: Objectification of women

                Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                I find it hilarious that saying "just make sure your female characters don't exist only to be prizes/sexual objects for your male characters" gets the response "THE PC POLICE ARE MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO WRITE!!!!" Or "I'm not sexist, but if women would stop only doing rom coms and write like men..."
                If you tell a love story from a male POV, people will scream that it's sexist because it makes her a PRIZE.

                If you tell it from a female POV, people will scream that it's sexist because we don't all need to marry the prince and live happily ever after.

                I argue that these grouches are simply against love. They were burned or something happened and they can't stand to see two people fall in love on screen because it reminds them of what they don't have so they turn it into some kind of Barbie doll/anti-Disney argument when really they're just a grouchy old stick in the mud.

                Anyway. Go have lunch over Skype or don't. And maybe eat some chocolate. And I will also take that advice. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
                Last edited by cvolante; 02-23-2016, 04:38 PM.

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                • Re: Objectification of women

                  Originally posted by cvolante View Post
                  I argue that these grouches are simply against love. They were burned or something happened and they can't stand to see two people fall in love on screen because it reminds them of what they don't have so they turn it into some kind of Barbie doll/anti-Disney argument when really they're just a grouchy old stick in the mud.
                  Sure as hell ain't me. I'm engaged to a super hot -- doctor. No, I don't find dumb chicks sexy. Although, her 'female' colleagues jokingly call her "Barbie." What does that say about other women?

                  However, film is an idealistic medium for both parties.

                  I choose to write women in action/thrillers with the same sentiment I have in real life: They have qualities *I* am attracted to. Looks. Brains. Ethics. Morals. Anti-religious [though that never makes it into the script, does it.] … and they have to be mentally tough.

                  I'll let someone else try the "nebbishy female action hero sidekick who could stand to loose some weight, isn't too bright nor coordinated, but has a heart of gold" action flick.

                  In this particular genre women surely write men the same way: They're seeing a Brad Pitt type not a Jonah Hill type [tall, masculine, brilliant, etc.]

                  The first line of dialogue in the script I'm writing is delivered by a women to the male "hero".

                  "You're not dead -- I saved you. You need 8 sutures, maybe 10. -- Though you’ll survive with none."

                  THEN (skipping high octane narrative.)

                  "I can’t kill them all -- I tried."

                  Not interested in writing a chick who's a p*ssy.
                  DOPE CITY

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                  • Re: Objectification of women

                    Ahahahahaha

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                    • Re: Objectification of women

                      Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                      Though the part of this thread that really depresses me is the feeling that "other screenwriters aren't my people. I owe them nothing." I come to these forums because I love lively discussions about my craft with other people who are also passionate about it.
                      I'm not seeing it. At the end of the day we're all attempting to beat each other out there. The moment a writer attacks another writer's prowess [sight unseen] based on not liking their opinion, it's no longer a "lively discussion." Instead of feeling like "they are me people" I'll file them away as trolls -- Not at all concerned with whether or not a troll thinks I can write, I highly doubt they are my competition out in the market place.

                      Others seem to possess enough intelligence to stay on topic without stooping to clichéd and pedestrian personal attacks. Those types can probably write.
                      Last edited by surftatboy; 02-23-2016, 07:04 PM. Reason: Typo: made me sound Russian
                      DOPE CITY

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                      • Re: Objectification of women

                        Originally posted by castilleja32 View Post
                        I don't think that there should be "no more stories about white males at all." But I wouldn't mind a moratorium for a while. There are so many neglected female characters, female-centered genres, and historical figures I'd love to see more of.
                        You do realize there's still 100 million white men in this country, right?.... I mean I know that the social activists and NY Times try to paint them as some sort of tyrannical minority, but.... please (btw they also kind of invented film and cameras and light bulbs and projectors and sound recording and symphonic music and theater architecture and dramatic writing and..... well, you get the point).

                        Originally posted by castilleja32 View Post
                        this discussion is very worthwhile.
                        I don't see any discussion. I only hear demands being made and hysterical knee-jerk over-reactions, like:

                        Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                        "THE PC POLICE ARE MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO WRITE!!!!"
                        which no one here said, ever.

                        At the end of the day, Hollywood movies are and always have been about Action (it's kind of the whole reason they're called MOVE-ies) and action usually boils down to violence, and violence has always been the domain of men. That's really all there is to it.

                        The interesting thing that's occurring now (and 'interesting' is not necessarily a good thing in this case.... this would drive me nuts if I was a woman) is that there used to be a nice even mix of studio level films where the big dumb action blockbusters paid for the awards season dramatic fare, but now there seems to be this reversion or a cultural infantilization where adults are reading YA fiction and somehow female 'empowerment' means 'kicking ass' in some fantasy scenario (whether it's a superhero world, or some dystopia or Melissa McCarthy in a world of bumbling spies or ghosts).

                        So, yes, woman can drive the box office, as long as there's no stories about REAL women. And instead of any push-back people seem to only want more.

                        I would be mad about that, but what do I know?

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                        • Re: Objectification of women

                          Originally posted by surftatboy View Post
                          The moment a writer attacks another writer's prowess [sight unseen] based on not liking their opinion, it's no longer a "lively discussion."
                          I don't think it's your opinion, but more that you come across as a massive tool in every discussion. Also every piece of writing you've posted has been terrible. Like that dialog. But please, keep holding court.

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                          • Re: Objectification of women

                            Originally posted by dmizzo View Post
                            I don't think it's your opinion, but more that you come across as a massive tool in every discussion. Also every piece of writing you've posted has been terrible. Like that dialog. But please, keep holding court.
                            Like I said, this place has a few trolls. Can't stay on topic. Gotta go for the lame "internet troll 101" attack. Might want to work on your cleverness. Listen, I'll continue to say whatever the fvck I please. Hilarious that some troll determines my writing to be horrible in two lines. The script has already been vetted. You're opinion means zero.

                            You're signed, sold and produced, correct? [feel free to take this convo to my inbox, or do you need to hide behind support from other trolls?]

                            --Back to topic--
                            DOPE CITY

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                            • Re: Objectification of women

                              Yep, yep, and yep. Writing two things for studios right now. But back on topic - you met Forest Whitaker once? Wow.

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                              • Re: Objectification of women

                                Originally posted by dmizzo View Post
                                Yep, yep, and yep. Writing two things for studios right now. But back on topic - you met Forest Whitaker once? Wow.
                                Ahh perfect. Let's trade some pages in private [why do you still need the audience?]. We can judge, you know, each other. Mono-a-mono. How confident are you that you kick my ass on the page. Prove it.

                                Btw -- weak comeback.
                                DOPE CITY

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