Small Note for Women TV Writers

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  • #31
    Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

    This was one of the most useful and interesting threads I've read in a long time. Thanks for posting it.

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    • #32
      Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

      Originally posted by Derek Haas View Post
      You mistake me. More than one-third were unoriginal. Most were unoriginal. One third were sooo unoriginal that they started the EXACT SAME WAY.

      My main point of posting this was to tell women writers in television that this opening has become a clam and to watch for it. Or keep doing what you're doing.

      Thanks for your response. Your posts, and responses to other posts on this topic, make a lot of compelling points.

      For me, one big eye-opener -- these unoriginal writers have reps who sent out these specs and, essentially, wasted your time. I mean this sincerely -- sending you sub-par work is bad for everyone involved, especially the writers. And I wonder why this happened.

      To clarify my previous post -- I think it's great for you to give a heads up about avoiding a worn out character intro. It's an important note. For me, and I think Emily said it well, the added suggestion for women to write male characters over female was surprising.

      However, thinking about it further, I'm wondering if there's another layer to this. Perhaps the suggestion to write male characters is very good advice but for a less obvious reason -- because it gives the writer a wider scope to work with in terms of originality.

      For example, as someone noted above, there's the old trope scene with the jaded cop waking in a messy bedroom with booze bottles on the nightstand, etc. etc. If you wrote this same scene with a woman in that cop role, not only would it be unoriginal, but you'd have the added issue of the woman being judged more harshly for living like this.

      I don't know if other women writers here have had the same experience but, even in my extremely limited experience in getting rep and producer notes (some from women), I was told more than once I had to make my female leads more likable. And, frankly, some of the suggestions on how to do this were really unoriginal.

      I found it frustrating. But after many debates back and forth with the manager about the objections against my female leads as written, I then realized what they really meant by "make her more likable" was closer to "make her above reproach."

      When you write a male charcater you have more leeway in terms of the tolerance level of his not-so-sunny behavior. With a female character the tolerance level is lower.

      Examples -- a drunk guy can be funny, a drunk woman is more often than not pathetic. A guy on screen who says sarcastic things to a kid right out of the gate is redeemable. A woman who snarks at a kid is much harder to redeem.

      The other day, As Good As It Gets, was on TV and I watched it yet again. I love this film. Love the writing and the top notch acting. However, try to imagine the lead genders switched. Try to imagine Melvin as a woman with all those psych issues, who tosses a tiny dog down the garbage chute in the opening. It wouldn't work would it?

      I blame it on the sugar-and-spice and-everything nice phenom that's so deeply ingrained in our society (in both men and women).

      Maybe -- as female writers who want to get their foot in the door -- we should consider that writing male characters offers more options.
      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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      • #33
        Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

        I was thinking about this issue too and the only woman I could think of who was an overweight, low-achieving slob who got her man was Bridget Jones. At least she was sexy; although I don't remember which page she jumped into bed.

        It is a good issue to bring up because it's an annoying trend in books and in movies when the female lead seems to be nothing more than a checklist of desirable characteristics. That said, I wonder how the audience would respond if the writers followed step 1 and step 2 in Derek's description and then had her get into her McDonald's uniform.

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        • #34
          Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

          Originally posted by novajane View Post
          I was thinking about this issue too and the only woman I could think of who was an overweight, low-achieving slob who got her man was Bridget Jones. At least she was sexy; although I don't remember which page she jumped into bed.

          It is a good issue to bring up because it's an annoying trend in books and in movies when the female lead seems to be nothing more than a checklist of desirable characteristics. That said, I wonder how the audience would respond if the writers followed step 1 and step 2 in Derek's description and then had her get into her McDonald's uniform.
          re: BF -- exactly! A while back on this board I applauded the series "Saving Grace" for breaking from this trend. Grace boozed and slept around and she was still an empathetic character. However, I got some pushback from someone who despised the character for her boozing and promiscuity and their reaction was really visceral.
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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          • #35
            Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

            I think NANCY, CELIA, and HEYLIA on weeds subverted all the tired tropes of women and how they are portrayed on TV/Film. I think that's what made WEEDS such a standout show for years, until it fell off and went off the rails. We were seeing women act against type; as drug dealers, promiscuous, violent, rude, and unpredictable.

            I've read the pilot of WEEDS. If you go back and watch it, you can see why it got bought and was a hit. It presented a world through the eyes of characters that acted unexpectedly in their environment. I.E. The suburbs of the rich.

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            • #36
              Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

              Interesting. I read the first post and the thing that leaps out to me is visual diary/wish fulfillment through characterization. Perhaps these women writers are inserting themselves into their lead character too much...? Ex, I wake up in the morning, I'm happy and physically fit, I'm beautiful and appealing, I have a sexy man waiting in bed; and, I'm a strong charismatic woman who can go off and save the world as a superhero, cop, detective, etc. I posit that this may be why a certain percentage of scripts appear to follow this pattern.

              I'm a woman, btw.
              life happens
              despite a few cracked pots-
              and random sunlight

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              • #37
                Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                Originally posted by Alfred Parker View Post
                Question for Derek and/or Jeff.

                If I'm reading Derek properly, he was saying that most (all?) of these scripts were spec pilots? Is that what you guys are seeing as the preference nowdays for aspiring staffers? Original pilot specs instead of specs of existing shows?

                And secondly (if you don't mind) Do you typically decide to meet and consider hiring off one strong sample? Or do you ask for a second sample of the writers who are in contention?

                Thanks for your time and answers. Good stuff here.
                I'd rather read a spec pilot so I can see if you can write original material well. If you're coming off a show, and you give me a sample of that show, I don't know how much of that episode was your idea, or even your writing.

                Yeah, I'll meet and consider off of a strong sample. Even off twenty pages of a strong sample. But the meeting is equally important.

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                • #38
                  Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                  As someone who for the first time in my career was in the position of hiring writers... here's what I/we looked for:

                  A script that opened with energy...

                  Dialogue that crackled...

                  Any kind of surprise... (Oh, I thought it was going to be about this, it was about that...)

                  Anything that showed range -- humor and then a shock... or action chops with real character development.


                  There is no rule for any of this... no paint-by-numbers that will make your script stand out. It's all gotta be on the page. And then, for TV, you have to have a personality that isn't like nails on a chalkboard.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                    Another question for Derek, if you'd please...

                    Did you tend to read originals that fell within specific genres or were you more concerned with the criteria you laid out? Did you meet/hire writers who wrote something outside any genre guidelines because the script/writer kicked ass?

                    Thanks for taking the time to answer, man.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                      Maybe -- as female writers who want to get their foot in the door -- we should consider that writing male characters offers more options.
                      That's what I've been doing for the past two years. Ultimately, to break in its about standing out, not doing what's expected based on your name, gender or nationality.

                      Most people express themselves creatively doing or writing what they know and to not do that, makes one stand out. Dichotomies are startling. Like a white soul singer/rapper or black rocker/country singer.

                      Interestingly enough, although not a pilot, that opener reminds me a lot of Safe House's first pages -- a couple waking up, his descript as handsome, the girlfriend being equal parts beauty and brains, sex in the first five pages...

                      That type of opener is a trope and for some reason women have latched onto it more disproportionately than men. More often than not, a writer will tend to rely on tropes until he's found his own voice.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                        Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
                        Another question for Derek, if you'd please...

                        Did you tend to read originals that fell within specific genres or were you more concerned with the criteria you laid out? Did you meet/hire writers who wrote something outside any genre guidelines because the script/writer kicked ass?

                        Thanks for taking the time to answer, man.
                        Anything but comedies.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                          Great inside baseball, Derek.

                          Thanks so much for taking the time -- this is a great thread.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                            Derek--
                            I know how fatiguing reading sub-standard work can get. And I understand how 10--12 scripts that start the same way have put a bee in your bonnet. And you are right: this is a "small note" you have written; because if that small group of writers that have fallen into cliche openings has compelled you to advise women writers to concentrate on writing MORE male characters, it's advice that is inconsequential at best, and small-minded (read:sexist) at worst. Women, write LOTS of female characters--just AVOID the cliche openings. There, Derek. Problem solved.
                            Last edited by krafty; 10-09-2013, 06:46 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                              Originally posted by WaitForIt View Post
                              This is so fascinating. So what you're saying is that women seem to feel compelled to show right away that their female protags are physically fit, successful, and in stable relationships in which they are either on equal footing or might even have the upper hand.

                              I could chew on that for weeks. And I'm a girl.
                              Was your take-away also that our competition is weak? Or 'how did they get repped?'

                              Guess I really do need to work on those skills that start with meeting people and/or leaving the apartment.
                              "The intrepid Spaceman Spiff is stranded on a distant planet! Our hero ruefully acknowledges this happens fairly frequently." Calvin & Hobbs

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                              • #45
                                Re: Small Note for Women TV Writers

                                Originally posted by Derek Haas View Post
                                I've had to read a lot of spec pilots over the last month. Of the female writers I read, my estimate is that a third of the scripts (out of probably 40) -- and I'm not exaggerating -- had a variation of this same opening...

                                A beautiful woman wakes up in bed and hits her alarm clock -- it reads 5 AM or 6 AM. She gets out of bed, puts on her jogging shoes, puts in her ear buds... and is off for a run while her boyfriend/husband/significant other lays in bed.

                                She's inevitably described as "smart as she is pretty" or "former tomboy, now beautiful" or whatever variation of that.

                                She returns home and showers, dresses... just as her boyfriend/husband gets up groggily... they have some conversation about "hey sleepyhead" or "glad to see you're up" or what-not.

                                Then the woman leaves for her job as doctor/detective/fashion designer/chef -- where she talks tough or is at the top of her game...


                                A third of the scripts started this way... at least 10, maybe 12... these are repped writers.

                                I'm telling you right now... don't start this way. It's so refreshing to see a woman writer who doesn't have a woman as the main character, I can't even tell you.

                                Anyway, that's an observation.
                                The Blacklist TV Pilot introduced the female protagonist waking up late for her first day as an FBI Profiler right after the teaser... and written by Jon Bokenkamp.

                                Granted it was a kickass teaser, but men use this device, too.
                                FA4
                                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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