Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

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  • #46
    Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

    Originally posted by Bono View Post
    That is good advice and topic - maybe we should start a new thread.

    Overall, it's funny how we write what we are passionate about by ourselves, send it out, get a rep, then all of a sudden we turn over all the creative decisions to a rep -- and often that has lead (at least in my case) to failure.

    I think the writer friends I know that have success -- manager their managers or agents -- and sort of sell them on what the writers is into writing.
    I think that is what I do? The stuff that never got anywhere was stuff that wasn't a movie. Or it wasn't commercial enough. (I have enough actor bait 50M projects sitting around) So my manager was correct.

    But the two things I mentioned above were worth writing and my passion sold him.

    And related to docgonzo's good points above, I personally don't trust writer friends takes. And I don't trust their reads either. I trust execs more. I don't think you can get a totally clean read from a fellow writer. (And I'm sure I don't give clean reads) Thought it was my paranoid competitiveness (and it is) but then I heard Billy Ray mention the same and felt better. Fvck writers.

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    • #47
      Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

      Originally posted by Cokeyskunk View Post

      Doing the math, this person just paid over a grand to get an average of 6.7. I have an average of 6.5 and paid $150. Are they really in a much better boat than I? Should I just keep buying evals until I hit that golden 8?

      I have never used the black list personally. People seem to like it -- all I see is the flaws and how it's a money sucker. But if you have the money sure take a chance for a month or two. But the thing I would not do is chase the numbers and think a perfect score will lead to success. Again, I'm not on the site, but I can only assume it's has many highly rated scripts and no success for the writers of those scripts (from the black list site itself).

      What I would do is take the positive signs that your script is "good" and use that confidence to query the script directly to reps or producers.

      I mean that is what the black list set up is all about right? Finding buyers? It's not some mark of approval where you can now say, I got a 9 on this spec and everyone in town now wants to read it.

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      • #48
        Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

        Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
        That's a good question. It depends on his argument against a particular idea. If he feels that it's not an original take or knows that there are seven other scripts floating around about the same thing, and two are packaged with top talent, that will make me take a step back. On the other hand, he's more open and collaborative than most, so he might suggest looking at something from a different angle or offer a suggestion that will spin it in another direction. That happened with a thriller I wrote that's about to go out for packaging with a producer attached. Then again, I have a pilot that I barely consulted him on, but he's into it, so that worked out.

        What I don't do is send a list of ideas for him to pick. I did that once, and luckily it worked out with him. But I've learned since to 1.) trust my instincts, and 2.) to not send him ideas that aren't fully developed and road tested first. That's the key, imo. Go to your trusted writer friends first and pitch them the idea. That way there shouldn't be much of an argument from your manager unless the market is flooded with similar ideas.

        I'm a guy that has too many ideas and would send lists. I'm not joking I wanted to send 50 ideas -- I'm thinking -- why not share them all. And my writer friends are like "send 3." And they are of course right because 45 out of those 50 ideas I probably don't even want to write or are only 20 pages when I think through what the story can be.



        So the key at least develop the idea far enough so you know you can write the 110 page spec. I know it sounds easy, but how many ideas that I've had seem like "that's a movie" and you realize "no that's a sketch" or "a short film" or "just i can't figure out what happens after 50 pages..."...

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        • #49
          Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

          Originally posted by Satriales View Post
          I think that is what I do? The stuff that never got anywhere was stuff that wasn’t a movie. Or it wasn’t commercial enough. (I have enough actor bait 50M projects sitting around) So my manager was correct.

          But the two things I mentioned above were worth writing and my passion sold him.

          And related to docgonzo’s good points above, I personally don’t trust writer friends takes. And I don’t trust their reads either. I trust execs more. I don’t think you can get a totally clean read from a fellow writer. (And I’m sure I don’t give clean reads) Thought it was my paranoid competitiveness (and it is) but then I heard Billy Ray mention the same and felt better. Fvck writers.

          I know what you're saying not sure there is such a thing a "clean read." But I do understand another writer is more likely to bring their own insecurity into it. Their own feelings. Their own hopes and dreams, yada yada. But still I think the best notes I get are from fellow writers, so I welcome the pain.

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          • #50
            Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

            Originally posted by Bono View Post
            I know what you're saying not sure there is such a thing a "clean read." But I do understand another writer is more likely to bring their own insecurity into it. Their own feelings. Their own hopes and dreams, yada yada. But still I think the best notes I get are from fellow writers, so I welcome the pain.
            That's why I say trusted writer friends. I have maybe three, at best.

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            • #51
              Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

              Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
              That's why I say trusted writer friends. I have maybe three, at best.
              I need new writer friends.

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              • #52
                Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                I hear you -- but my trusted friends keeps changing. It's crazy how that happens. So sometimes you got to be open. And some of the best notes I get are from non writers which is so weird. And some of the worst notes I get are from writers and friends. So it's always a mixed mag.

                It's a very personal thing finding feedback that works for you.

                Most of the time you'll get 100 notes and 10 work for you. And that's just the way it is.

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                • #53
                  Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                  Originally posted by Cokeyskunk View Post
                  I was thrilled to see my feature script, A CHRISTMAS CHEER, is on the blcklst "Real Time Top List" for this quarter.

                  My question is: would this get the attention of potential producers or reps? Is it worth doing a "blanket" query of sorts touting this information? I mean, I've advanced in several competitions, including Austin and ScreenCraft, but does this trump that?

                  Just looking for advice on my best next step. Thanks in advance, folks.
                  Amazon Picks Up 'Ex-mas' Feature Pitch From Chris Hazzard & Michael Fontana; Alloy Producing
                  https://deadline.com/2020/08/amazon-...ng-1203025901/
                  Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                  "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

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                  • #54
                    Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                    Originally posted by docgonzo View Post
                    You only get trapped in that manager development hell if you allow it. I know it's difficult to say to no, but with some things you have to. And it takes going through a manager or two until you're finally able to do that. I fell into that trap a couple of times. Eventually, thanks to numerous frustrations, I learned to say **** it and do what I want. I'll go to my manager with an idea that I'm into and ask for notes/thoughts on how to make it better. But I'm not in the game of sending a list of ideas for my manager to pick for me to write. No more of that.
                    Yes. With respect, I do not remotely understand anyone who would allow their managers to tell them what to write or how to write it.

                    Here's the thing: I know lots of managers, socially and professionally. I don't know of a single one who grew up telling stories or who has an advanced degree in literature or who writes reviews for the New York Review of Books or or or. The field consists almost entirely of basic people who decided at the age of 22 that Hollywood sounded better than banking and got an internship. Some of them came up as assistants at management co.s, and others flamed out at agencies or got tired of climbing the exec ladder, etc.

                    The point is: these aren't exactly creative geniuses or storytelling experts. For the most part, what they "know" is just conventional wisdom passed down from bosses and colleagues. I'm genuinely not trying to minimize their contribution: many of them are great at sniffing out work, making introductions, finding IP, hyping clients, strategizing, packaging elements, protecting writers, etc.-- which is good, since that's their job!

                    But if you asked me who would was likely to have brilliant creative insights on my concept or my pitch or my screenplay... I dunno, "Hollywood lit manager" would be preeeeeetty far down on the list.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                      Well I hope your rep doesn't read this post. Ha.

                      But I don't think that's reality. Most reps PUSH clients in certain ways. And when you are first starting out or even me who hasn't sold something on spec -- it's hard to argue too much. And also you want a partnership.

                      There are for sure writers who would be better off just with reps that just want to sell and not develop. So if that's you, better to seek them out. But sometimes it's so so hard to tell.

                      A big rep I didn't sign with was because she told me they love to develop stuff and would take two years if they think it would get the script right and to me that was a huge turnoff. I didn't want that much help. Then again another big rep I was with before then had ZERO NOTES for us and just said "don't like it" which was even worse since we developed with with junior manager and he showed them treatments... yada yada... both ends of that stink to me. Reps not knowing what they want after pushing you a certain way is brutal.

                      But the reality is you have to please your rep or reps first so they will take out the material. Most reps (good ones) will not take out something they don't believe in. So you have to work with them or you'll never get to the selling stage...

                      So if you don't get their feedback and just write what you want and they don't like it -- then you have to find a new rep if they won't take it out. That's not great either. Neither is writing something you don't want to write to please them.

                      It does suck, but you just try to do your best to please yourself and also know you have to please rep and other decision makers along the way.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                        Originally posted by Bono View Post
                        But the reality is you have to please your rep or reps first so they will take out the material. Most reps (good ones) will not take out something they don't believe in. So you have to work with them or you'll never get to the selling stage...

                        So if you don't get their feedback and just write what you want and they don't like it -- then you have to find a new rep if they won't take it out. That's not great either. Neither is writing something you don't want to write to please them.

                        It does suck, but you just try to do your best to please yourself and also know you have to please rep and other decision makers along the way.
                        Oh, man, I couldn't disagree with this more!

                        A rep should take out the script they signed you off of. If they don't want to take out that script in something close to its current form, you should not sign with them.

                        Hopefully, that script sells or gets you jobs and makes you some money and starts your career. By the time you've written your next spec, you'll have your own relationships and won't be so dependent on the blessing of any manager.

                        Obviously, if your reps think a script will do harm to your (or their) career-- if they think it's awful or offensive or whatever-- they should tell you, and you should take that seriously. And obviously, a rep, like anyone, will have notes, and you should consider those notes, as you'd consider anyone's.

                        But I don't think that's what we're talking about here (reps having some notes or raising the alarm at potentially harmful scripts). I think we're talking about people who've never written anything in their lives trying to meddle in writers' creative processes as a matter of course. I'd personally avoid any rep like that, but different strokes, etc.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                          Originally posted by AnyOtherName View Post
                          Oh, man, I couldn't disagree with this more!

                          A rep should take out the script they signed you off of. If they don't want to take out that script in something close to its current form, you should not sign with them.

                          Hopefully, that script sells or gets you jobs and makes you some money and starts your career. By the time you've written your next spec, you'll have your own relationships and won't be so dependent on the blessing of any manager.

                          Obviously, if your reps think a script will do harm to your (or their) career-- if they think it's awful or offensive or whatever-- they should tell you, and you should take that seriously. And obviously, a rep, like anyone, will have notes, and you should consider those notes, as you'd consider anyone's.

                          But I don't think that's what we're talking about here (reps having some notes or raising the alarm at potentially harmful scripts). I think we're talking about people who've never written anything in their lives trying to meddle in writers' creative processes as a matter of course. I'd personally avoid any rep like that, but different strokes, etc.

                          Reps I signed with did take out spec I wrote by myself in current form, but those didn't sell. This happened to me twice. Fun!

                          But the ones we worked on next is what I'm talking about...

                          And my current rep I got signed off a feature sample and a new TV pilot, but we started writing something new together...

                          So I don't know if we are truly disagreeing or talking about different things...

                          Everything would be 100% different if I sold a spec...

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                          • #58
                            Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                            Originally posted by AnyOtherName View Post
                            Oh, man, I couldn't disagree with this more!

                            A rep should take out the script they signed you off of. If they don't want to take out that script in something close to its current form, you should not sign with them.

                            Hopefully, that script sells or gets you jobs and makes you some money and starts your career. By the time you've written your next spec, you'll have your own relationships and won't be so dependent on the blessing of any manager.

                            Obviously, if your reps think a script will do harm to your (or their) career-- if they think it's awful or offensive or whatever-- they should tell you, and you should take that seriously. And obviously, a rep, like anyone, will have notes, and you should consider those notes, as you'd consider anyone's.

                            But I don't think that's what we're talking about here (reps having some notes or raising the alarm at potentially harmful scripts). I think we're talking about people who've never written anything in their lives trying to meddle in writers' creative processes as a matter of course. I'd personally avoid any rep like that, but different strokes, etc.
                            I appreciate this advice. And Docgonzo's too.

                            I had a manager-not-manager, who really wanted to just produce my high concept action thriller. When that came close but didn't work out, he became a lot less helpful. And I got the two option offers on my own, even though they didn't work out.

                            I wrote a noir crime thriller. He wasn't sure what he could do with it, because it was an anti-hero character so he sent off my draft to someone else in the industry WITHOUT my permission (working draft not final draft) who told him, nah, don't do it.

                            When my manager got that back, he told me he didn't think he could do anything with it. So what did I do? I shelved it. Figured it was ****. I let someone else, a writer friend (two) and both liked it. Right now I'm rewriting the first act.

                            Now that my manager-not-manager isn't with me anymore, I realize that was a mistake, but I trusted that he knew more than I, when really he just had different taste. I have this other manager who's like I'll hip pocket the big feature, but won't work with me on anything else. He checked my website a couple months later and sent me an email on a WIP and said, hey can you send me Taken with a female lead?

                            I said sure, when it's done. Guess who I won't be sending that script to.

                            It's tough, but I don't want a manager that isn't going to try to sell what I write or dictate what I SHOULD write. I don't want a manager whose biggest concern is how many writers he gets on the black list every year. I want a manager who can sell ****. Guide me to address issues with my story. Work with me on achieving my goals as a writer. And someone who won't box me in as a writer.

                            And sadly, I will most likely have to take what I can get. Which might be less than ideal. And maybe I'm just a once-in-a-while lucky hack.

                            Just wanted to say thanks to AnyOtherName and Docgonzo for contributing to the thread.
                            "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                            • #59
                              Re: Made the Black List "Top List" - how can I use that?

                              To the OP (and anyone considering using TBL), I would say, keep an eye on your top list eligibility, because after the three month mark, it will take two additional evaluations/ratings to get back on the next quarter's top list (min 2 new ratings per quarter above the average), and also potentially qualify for the annual list (required 4 ratings above the average).

                              I say this as my one of my scripts just aged out of the quarter top list a few days ago. I was like, hey where'd my script go? Forgot that they age out every 90 days. Most indy pros look at the top list for the quarter, or the 8s weekly emails, so you have to pay $150 each quarter for two new evaluations on top of the $90 for hosting for 3 months, in order to hopefully stay on the quarterly top list. After 4 ratings above the com ave you will be on the annual list, but I believe (not for any known reason) that most indy pros look at the quarterly top lists. Some of them only read the 8s weekly email blast-- which happens exactly one time for each rating 8 or above.

                              So for transparency's sake, if you can consistently receive ratings above the community average and you want to remain on the quarterly list for 4 quarters and on the annual list it will cost you, minimally: $360 for hosting and $600 for evaluations, $960 in total for one year for one script. So if you have two or three, the investment becomes pretty steep, at least it does for me. You can receive indy pro ratings, I have, but they are far and few between.

                              If you don't query immediately you run the risk of falling off the quarterly list in short order, for your script, Cokeyskunk, that is 11/18. That may seem like a long time, but it goes by fast. To provide a better answer to your original question, if you want to use being on the top list in your queries, the sooner you send your queries the better. Otherwise the effort is moot if no one can validate your claim if you age out before they respond to your query-- do you see what I'm saying?

                              You also have to consider if you want to pay for two now to hopefully get the golden 8. But remember, you'll still age OFF the quarterly list after 90 days. So, you have to gauge which is more important to you? Being on the Quarterly list or being on the Annual list?

                              If hadn't read your post, I would have blindly continued paying for hosting not realizing my script had aged out of the quarterly top list. So, thanks for the reminder.

                              Good luck.
                              Last edited by finalact4; 08-30-2020, 07:21 PM.
                              "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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