Trim Down That Spec

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  • Trim Down That Spec

    https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/r...t-6a567c07fab3

    As I get notes from rep to make story better, more natural -- it just keeps adding pages. He said don't worry about that now.

    At one point I turned in a nice 108 draft.

    Currently with changes I'm at 125 pages. Some of it is because manager is like "where did that funny line go?" And I'm like I love it too, but what about also the goal to be 110 pages. Us writers always know the notes will lead to more pages even if they can't see it.

    So just thought I'd mention how this happens a lot. I want my script to be 110 pages or shorter -- it's just not right now and because it has a lot of dialogue it doesn't read long (to me). I've read 93 page script that felt like 200 pages. So it can go both ways.

    But still -- when we send it out -- it's gotta be closer to 110 than 125.

    So I know I'm going to have to cut jokes and bits and scenes we love to get it down.

    Anyway, I thought it might be a good topic that I haven't seen on the boards at least in awhile.

    Things can always be shorter. Including this post.

  • #2
    Re: Trim Down That Spec

    Tell me why you killed that funny line. What thoughts were going through your head at the time?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Trim Down That Spec

      And was it the only funny line in your comedy?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Trim Down That Spec

        Page count is a hot topic. It's a passionate topic because writers don't want to kill their baby, or cut off an arm, leg, or even an itsy-bitsy pinky.

        Bono, you expressed to me that you'd like for me to keep my posts to a paragraph, or even a long paragraph, but I have an "A" type personality. I can't cover this topic in one paragraph where I'll be satisfied that I didn't do it in a half-ass way.

        I need to do it right, for me anyway, or I can't do it.

        This is your thread. If you wish for me not to post my opinion on this topic unless I don't go longer than a paragraph, then I'll respect your wishes and not post.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Trim Down That Spec

          I try to top out at 108 pages. 109 looks like you're trying to get it under 110. That's for drama. My container thriller was 95, we for it down from 99.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Trim Down That Spec

            Yes I prefer 105 myself. I just like the way it looks. Under 100 feels too short in spec land, not that as a reader I don't get excited. 95 to 99 pages to me feels better for horror specs I wrote than the comedy with lost of dialogue. Hmm.

            I never usually run long with specs at this stage. But it's just the new procress with new rep so sometimes when you get a note from someone -- you know as the writer -- this is a great note -- but it will also ADD 5 pages.

            But right now he told me don't worry about length and just do the rewrite, so I'm going with it.

            I know how to be brutal with my work. I just wanted to discuss this topic as I'm dealing with it now for first time in a bit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Trim Down That Spec

              Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
              This is your thread. If you wish for me not to post my opinion on this topic unless I don't go longer than a paragraph, then I'll respect your wishes and not post.

              I started the thread -- but it's NOT MINE. Post whatever you want. My suggestion was simply tell us your thoughts in your own words and less is more (what this thread is really about at the core) so that way more people will read it and chime in.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Trim Down That Spec

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                https://gointothestory.blcklst.com/r...t-6a567c07fab3

                As I get notes from rep to make story better, more natural -- it just keeps adding pages. He said don't worry about that now.

                At one point I turned in a nice 108 draft.

                Currently with changes I'm at 125 pages. Some of it is because manager is like "where did that funny line go?" And I'm like I love it too, but what about also the goal to be 110 pages. Us writers always know the notes will lead to more pages even if they can't see it.

                So just thought I'd mention how this happens a lot. I want my script to be 110 pages or shorter -- it's just not right now and because it has a lot of dialogue it doesn't read long (to me). I've read 93 page script that felt like 200 pages. So it can go both ways.

                But still -- when we send it out -- it's gotta be closer to 110 than 125.

                So I know I'm going to have to cut jokes and bits and scenes we love to get it down.

                Anyway, I thought it might be a good topic that I haven't seen on the boards at least in awhile.

                Things can always be shorter. Including this post.
                Go through it (for the umpteenth time) and find places where you can get in later and/or get out earlier. There must be something somewhere in there that can be cut down to accommodate the notes (which equal pages). Or maybe if this keeps happening, consider a new rep, too.
                “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Trim Down That Spec

                  The first draft of my second spec was 147 pages. It took months to get it to 119. Now that I look back on it I'm sure that most of what I cut was self-indulgent crap. The weird thing is a 130 something page draft went to one of the Screencraft contest semis last year (I know that doesn't mean much) but this year the shorter, and I feel better, draft didn't make it past the first round. Anyway, I feel that project helped me write more like a screenwriter and less like a wannabe novelist, at least somewhat.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Trim Down That Spec

                    I CAN cut away stuff now. I know I can. My first draft from treatment we worked on a lot was 150 pages. I got that down to 108 before I turned it in. So I literally did it recently. Now it's back up to 125 as I type this and I only edited first 60 pages so far.

                    But I know right now my rep needs to see those beats so then alter we can agree to cut something else, yada yada. It's a process. Sometimes you have to try things to see what doesn't work. Again, this is more taking it out for all of us than me needing specific advice if that makes sense. But I welcome words of wisdom and hearing DDoc give their story is helpful as then you know you're not alone.

                    My guess is some of the stuff we both love and scenes will be taken out before we send it out. I'm sure the next draft after we get the dialgoue/character stuff nailed -- will be a page length draft.

                    I asked him since I'm not alone in this -- does page count matter as much? He said 110 still good -- but for sure longer specs on black list. My gut says he may be fine with 115 pages if it reads well. But maybe those were already sold writers who could get away with longer specs.

                    Clerks spec is 163 pages and movie was 93 pages. Braveheart spec was 90 pages and 3 hours long. So one to one doesn't always hold water as My cousin vinny says. But in general 100-110 pages is the spec goal I aim for.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Trim Down That Spec

                      The following is from a professional writer (and please, this writer is still living and active, so remember it's just this person's opinion, where it might have since changed. If you have a different opinion, then state it. No need to personally attack this writer):

                      "I read for the Academy judging Nicholl entries ... If your script goes over 130 I hate you. If it goes over 120 I do not like you. And if it goes under 100, I do not think you have a full story. And I do not care what genre that falls into, that is across the, boards.-

                      This reader's POV just gave you a preview of what you're up against when you send your script out to contests or the Industry/marketplace, where it'll get judged before they even look at the content.

                      Is this reader's blanket statement 100% accurate? No, it isn't, but this person is going by his/her experiences. Does this mean you better get your 92 page comedy script up to 100 pages? No. (That is if your gut and feedback says it works.)

                      A reader might feel worried that the script being on the light side is a indication that there's not enough story, needs to be fleshed out, or if a script is on the heavy side, say 138 pages, that it's bloated, overwritten, but if your gut and feedback were true, then after the Reader reads a few pages this person will realize he/she is in the hands of a professional and can relax and enjoy the story.

                      From another professional writer:

                      "I have had my managers and producers I'm working with encourage me to aim for the 110 page mark because it feels like it's long enough to be a fully developed story but isn't so long as to elicit a groan or feel overwritten. Obviously the story is what matters but the page count does create certain preconceptions before the script is read and why start off with negative expectations?-

                      From a reader with experience working in production/development:

                      "A lot of companies I've worked with instruct their readers to automatically pass on all scripts (except from A-list writers) that are over 125-130 pages, simply writing in the coverage that it needs to be cut down, edited, etc. before it warrants consideration. Which makes it kind of hard to hook the reader when they won't even read the first page of your script.-

                      Bono provided a link to Scott Myers' (SM) site, where he asked The Bitter Script Reader (TBSR):

                      SM: "If you flip to the back page and see that it's 125, what's your reaction?-

                      TBSR: "I sigh. It's probably a lame reaction to have, but it tells me there's bound to be fat in the script.-

                      Now, for the $1,000,000 question (because this could possibly be what it costs you if you make the wrong choice): If you have a 138 page screenplay that you feel in your gut and from feedback that it's solid, can't get it no tighter or perfect for the story you want to tell, would you cut 18 plus pages to appease readers' expectations?

                      Think about this possible scenario: An agent takes a stack of scripts home for his weekend read, and pulls out your script and notices something's off, notices how thick and heavy it is. He looks at the last page, 138.

                      His reaction: "Oof." He puts it at the bottom of the stack to read later, which he never gets to, and pulls out a 100 page script, sips on his ice tea and reads.

                      In this scenario, you just made a $1,000,000 mistake by not making the effort to cut more pages.

                      How about this scenario: You cut your 138 page tight and perfect script to 110 pages to make it more reader friendly. An agent pulls it out of his stack and notices it's 110 pages. A smile comes to his face. He sits back to enjoy the read, but he doesn't enjoy it because, you, the writer, cut the heart out of it to appease a reader's expectations.

                      The writer can't win. What would you do in this situation?

                      I was recently faced with this decision with my action adventure coming in the 130s page area and I was terrified.

                      I know there have been screenplays over 125 pages that were on the yearly Black List. I know of a 153 page script won the Nicholl fellowship in the past (and the only one in it's history), but I keep hearing the above readers negative take on this page count in my head.

                      And I'm hearing voices about how it's important to have the screenplay come in at 110 pages because of the number of showings in the theater, the financial factor with more pages causing a bigger budget, etc.

                      Whoa is me. What the F%CK am I to do!

                      I'm hearing TBSR's last words in the Scott Myers' interview:

                      "It's SO easy to get a 125 page script down by ten pages just with economical description. Leaving it at 125 is a worrying 'tell.'-

                      My immediate reaction to this statement is -- well, I can't say because there are ladies present, but I did take this type of challenge on, where I went to work to trim and cut my action adventure, where hopefully I could get it down to at least 120 pages.

                      I trimmed the dialogue and description, which it came out a lot better to tell you the truth, so there was one plus, but it was still badly over 120 pages.

                      I had to face the unavoidable: I had to cut scenes.

                      So, like a Duke University trained surgeon, I went into my screenplay and cut. One of the scenes I cut was a factory scene where they make furniture.
                      In this scene, Shelby, one of the protagonist of the story, secretly organizes the American slave craftsmen in the factory to manufacture guns for an escape.

                      You know, there was drama with secretly manufacture the guns, if they were caught they would be hanged.

                      Showing tension with lookouts and production, etc., but I sacrificed this scene to get the script page count down.

                      I just end up showing her organizing the craftsmen, but cut the secret manufacturing of the rifles, the loading in false truck bottoms and getting the trucks past the guards to deliver them.

                      I just show the protagonist delivering the guns to the rebel camp.

                      Doing all of this, I got the script down to 123 pages, where I exclaim in the words of Roberto Duran, "No mas.-

                      I just got my feedback back from a professional analysis (an award winning professional writer), where in one note he suggests:

                      -what you need is to show us guns being manufactured. Show workers ingeniously manufacturing guns but ever on alert and ready for when Marcel or Charbonneau come around so they only see cribs and chairs and tables being made. Also, let's see hundreds of guns packed in boxes marked for other items and how they're stored and ready for distribution.-

                      What's a writer to do? He's screwed if he does and screwed if he doesn't. I guess I gotta take the attitude of it is what it is: If it takes 130 pages to tell the story you want, then go onward and don't look back.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Trim Down That Spec

                        Bono:

                        Years ago, using tricks I've learned as a marketing/advertising writer, I helped a DD member (she no longer seems active) trim 6-plus pages from a script without deleting any scenes.

                        The first thing to keep in mind is you're dealing with character count (number of letters and spaces in a line) which can create widows (or lines with only two words) lengthening action and dialogue. You can do away with widows by switching out adjectives and verbs for words with less characters.

                        After eliminating these, look for places where you've used, let's say, 10 words when the same can be achieved with just 5 words. Example from a comment in this thread (Sorry, D-Pat, yours is the quickest example):

                        Original: Tell me why you killed that funny line. What thoughts were going through your head at the time? (18 words)

                        Edited: Why did you kill that funny line? What were you thinking at the time? (14)

                        Even shorter: What were you thinking when you killed that funny line? (10)

                        I've seen many spec scripts unnecessarily micro-manage physical movements adding unneeded action lines. Example:

                        CLERK
                        You gonna buy that?

                        Jack reaches into his jacket and takes out his wallet.

                        JACK
                        What's the damage.

                        Seven lines. Yet this action can go into a wrylie eliminating an entire line.

                        CLERK
                        You gonna buy that?

                        JACK
                        (Takes out wallet)
                        What's the damage.

                        I also look for places where action lines have been written in complete, AP-style sentences eating up two or more lines when you can get away with much shorter, incomplete sentences eliminating lines.

                        In some specs, I've seen writers choose to include two minor characters, each with sparse dialogue, when combining them into one minor character can reduce page length considerably.

                        Anyway -- these are some of the techniques I use to trim. Hope it helps.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Trim Down That Spec

                          Truth in commentary here ... I did not read all of that. It is too much like the 135-page script.

                          My thoughts are these:

                          Rarely if ever have I read a wannabe writer's script that was so good that I did not want it to come to an end. I can well imagine that a professional reader would instinctively hate a script that is overlong. This is sad, because some works really need more than about a hundred minutes to present well.

                          I have also observed that even scripts that are normal in length rarely have a strong second act. A script that is 80 pages ... well, that pretty much tells me that the second act is missing.

                          "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Trim Down That Spec

                            Originally posted by Bono View Post
                            I CAN cut away stuff now. I know I can. My first draft from treatment we worked on a lot was 150 pages. I got that down to 108 before I turned it in. So I literally did it recently. Now it's back up to 125 as I type this and I only edited first 60 pages so far.

                            But I know right now my rep needs to see those beats so then alter we can agree to cut something else, yada yada. It's a process. Sometimes you have to try things to see what doesn't work. Again, this is more taking it out for all of us than me needing specific advice if that makes sense. But I welcome words of wisdom and hearing DDoc give their story is helpful as then you know you're not alone.

                            My guess is some of the stuff we both love and scenes will be taken out before we send it out. I'm sure the next draft after we get the dialgoue/character stuff nailed -- will be a page length draft.

                            I asked him since I'm not alone in this -- does page count matter as much? He said 110 still good -- but for sure longer specs on black list. My gut says he may be fine with 115 pages if it reads well. But maybe those were already sold writers who could get away with longer specs.

                            Clerks spec is 163 pages and movie was 93 pages. Braveheart spec was 90 pages and 3 hours long. So one to one doesn't always hold water as My cousin vinny says. But in general 100-110 pages is the spec goal I aim for.
                            My goal for feature spec scripts is 110 pages with +/- 10 pages.
                            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Trim Down That Spec

                              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                              Bono:

                              Years ago, using tricks I've learned as a marketing/advertising writer, I helped a DD member (she no longer seems active) trim 6-plus pages from a script without deleting any scenes.

                              The first thing to keep in mind is you're dealing with character count (number of letters and spaces in a line) which can create widows (or lines with only two words) lengthening action and dialogue. You can do away with widows by switching out adjectives and verbs for words with less characters.

                              After eliminating these, look for places where you've used, let's say, 10 words when the same can be achieved with just 5 words. Example from a comment in this thread (Sorry, D-Pat, yours is the quickest example):

                              Original: Tell me why you killed that funny line. What thoughts were going through your head at the time? (18 words)

                              Edited: Why did you kill that funny line? What were you thinking at the time? (14)

                              Even shorter: What were you thinking when you killed that funny line? (10)

                              I've seen many spec scripts unnecessarily micro-manage physical movements adding unneeded action lines. Example:

                              CLERK
                              You gonna buy that?

                              Jack reaches into his jacket and takes out his wallet.

                              JACK
                              What's the damage.

                              Seven lines. Yet this action can go into a wrylie eliminating an entire line.

                              CLERK
                              You gonna buy that?

                              JACK
                              (Takes out wallet)
                              What's the damage.

                              I also look for places where action lines have been written in complete, AP-style sentences eating up two or more lines when you can get away with much shorter, incomplete sentences eliminating lines.

                              In some specs, I've seen writers choose to include two minor characters, each with sparse dialogue, when combining them into one minor character can reduce page length considerably.

                              Anyway -- these are some of the techniques I use to trim. Hope it helps.
                              This what I practice. It takes practice, too, and a good vocabulary is a huge plus. But it’s great when dialogue doesn’t carry over from one page to the next, and/or page count is reduced as a result. On final drafts, my script pages always “come away clean” at the bottom of each page (without cheating).
                              “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

                              Comment

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