A Note about Notes

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  • #61
    Re: A Note about Notes

    I'm calling BULL-****ING-**** on "brutally honest," notes. There is no reason those two words should be together. And I'm not talking about pandering to someone's ego or blowing smoke up their ass.

    There is nothing wrong with honest notes. And to someone receiving them they can certainly feel "brutal," at the time. Anyone who gives notes to tear another writer down or try to build themselves up is a lowlife piece of ****.

    Feedback and notes are offered, I would think, as a writer offering an opinion to help the writer achieve THEIR vision.

    That's all it is.

    The receiver doesn't have to agree, accept or implement a single note. I have received amazing notes. Ones I carefully consider because I want to be the best and I can't do that if I'm not willing to accept I need to grow.

    The notes that are the most problematic are the ones where the reviewer tells the writer what "I would do," instead of trying to get to the intention of the writer.

    We all write with intention. Sometimes what we know about what we write gets on the page and sometimes... it's still in our head and even reading it a thousand times doesn't change OUR perspective on our own writing...

    So, we need feedback. We need honest feedback with intention toward understanding the writer's vision.

    Notes are tough, because when you come in blind you might think you understand the intention only to discover that the set ups you mildly felt, were actually something you needed to pay attention to. The writer need to know that you missed it, so if they agree, they can FIX IT.

    Also, another thing to remember when giving notes is to talk about the pages, for screenplay, the scene, the moment, the characters and DO NOT make it about the writer.

    I have a problem with anyone who says, "YOU did this, YOU did that, YOU should think about doing this..." That makes it personal and put a writer in a defensive position, even if it's unintentional. And that's the worst place to be when you receive notes. And I can read past those kind of things because I've received a lot of notes, but others haven't always had a lot of experience with honesty and it can feel humiliating, embarrassing and discouraging. Notes should NEVER discourage a writer from writing. You can't control how someone takes a note, but you can certainly control how YOU frame it.

    I will never lie to a writer. I will never tell them something to make them feel good if I do not believe it. But there is no reason to "rip it to shreds." And I honestly think that "feeling" comes from the MANNER in which the notes are offered-- ie it feels like a personal attack.

    anyway, just so y'all know, if i'm offering notes, it's because i want to help you, the writer. I have nothing to prove. I want to help writers because writers helped me when i didn't know ****-- yeah, that was yesterday. haha.

    And I'm not saying I'm right when I give notes. I'm just telling what I see. What I feel. And there are so many ****ing differences between writers of all levels that you just can't say anything with absolute certainty.

    okay, i gotta stop-- I'm having a glass of pinot noir and my thoughts are meandering. a lot.
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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    • #62
      Re: A Note about Notes

      Meh... Keep talking. Those are some of the best posts, the drunk ones. Ha!

      But, yup, agreed. What is the INTENTION? I think that's what bugs me the most about notes. Very rarely does the note giver consider MY intention. Ummm... NO I DIDN'T DO IT WRONG I just did it DIFFERENTLY than how you'd do it, seeing as my life experience is different [You get that people are different, yeah?].

      Which is why it's HARD for me to give notes. I'ma have lots of questions first. WHAT WERE YOU GOING FOR and WHY? To give serious notes I need to know that up front.

      Notes on formating = EASY.

      Notes on story = HARDER.

      "BRUTALLY HONEST" implies "BRUTALLY RIGHT."

      No! Bruh, it's still only your fukkin OPINION.
      Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: A Note about Notes

        I know it bugs some people but to me “the bad version is...” is a helpful note. It generally sets me on the right path. I’m not a great diagnostician. I barely know if my sh1t is working half the time. But I can engineer a solution. Ultimately, as a writer this is a trade off I’m comfortable with. So drown me in notes.

        And as it pertains to twitter: I must be a cynical dink because the constant vein opening and preciousness of writers on there bothers me. The Stuart Smalley daily affirmations. The “I’m a delicate artist that needs to be in a certain headspace to create” just screams performance art. I get it. Everyone has a process. Everyone has their own baggage. For me, it’s tedious.

        Ultimately, this place is by far the most “functional” writer community on the Internet, IMO. Helpful, mature, and fun.

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        • #64
          Re: A Note about Notes

          Originally posted by Bono View Post
          I understand your points - but pick other words -- I just choose the first ones that came to mind. I think you knew exactly what I meant -- you're just given me "honest notes" on my post. But that's my point -- I think yes it should be to improve material -- but see how we may not be on same page. I think we are -- you just didn't like the term I used. I'm not looking to pick on bad scripts. I'm looking to make good scripts great.

          I don't find my friends ( or any readers) giving me their honest thoughts as cruel. I find it more cruel to give a person "good job" when you dislike the material and then they have false confidence.

          My latest thing -- tv pilot -- it had been a long time between projects so I asked readers to "let me know if I can still write." That was my goal with reads. And some people that always give me detailed notes -- had no notes -- and that was also my way of knowing they disliked it, but they didn't want to do "brutal honesty" as I called it. It's not fun being that guy. It actually takes guts to tell someone the truth. It's not easy. Or fun. It sucks. So if someone takes the time to offer you that hard note, thank them. They may be wrong, but thank them. Craig Mazin helped save GOT being that good writer friend.

          I have given plenty of "good job" notes to people over the years -- and part of me feels bad -- but a lot of the time it was to strangers or people I just met on here that I knew if I went too honest it would backfire because that has happened many times to me. So I rarely give my full notes except to the few I know really want it and can take it.

          We all secretly want to hear THIS IS THE BEST SCRIPT ever. Maybe not even secretly.
          I had no intention to single you out on this, Bono -- as you say, they were just words that came to mind for you. I think all your comments in this thread are actually very good and constructive. But the phrase has become that common, which says something in itself.

          I am talking more about comments that are like "X plot development is ridiculous," "y character's reaction to z here is downright moronic," "what on earth were you thinking when you made this the final scene," and so forth. And writer's seeking feedback often go out of their way to say things like "Really give it to me good, be brutally honest, I can take it. Don't hold anything back!" which practically invites the reader to tell it just like that, because it may well be your "honest" reaction.

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          • #65
            Re: A Note about Notes

            I didn’t mean to single you out either. I didn’t feel singled out. I’m just trying to explain my POV. To everyone forgot the term I picked. My meaning was clear. It is very hard to give honest feedback to writers. Especially friends. It’s actually easier for me to give advice on here to some people I talk with privately than tell them directly. Why? Human nature. I want every script I read to be great. But I want to know how to make mine better. And I assume that all writers should know how to make it better.

            Of course it’s only opinion. That’s my pet peeve. Writers saying you didn’t get it my intention. I can only judge by what you give me and what I bring to it. So if it’s only me that says a thing ignore it. 3 people give you same note consider it. Me I take any note I respond to even if only 1 person suggests it.

            Giving notes is crazy hard. Getting notes — actually hearing them is hardest for writers.

            I can tell if people are good writers just by how they respond and give notes.

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            • #66
              Re: A Note about Notes

              On that note, if anyone wants to exchange notes, I am open for a swap.

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              • #67
                Re: A Note about Notes

                Originally posted by muckraker View Post
                But the phrase has become that common, which says something in itself.

                I am talking more about comments that are like "X plot development is ridiculous," "y character's reaction to z here is downright moronic," "what on earth were you thinking when you made this the final scene," and so forth. And writer's seeking feedback often go out of their way to say things like "Really give it to me good, be brutally honest, I can take it. Don't hold anything back!" which practically invites the reader to tell it just like that, because it may well be your "honest" reaction.
                This is exactly the kind of feedback that demeans and belittles writers unnecessarily. I mean, seriously what's the ****ing point and how is that helping a writer write better. There is NEVER a place for this kind of feedback from anyone. It is a personal attack on a writer and understandably puts a writer on the defense.

                If you can't frame an issue you discover while reading a screenplay in a manner that first identifies the problem, and second, offers a solution to repair it, your note is a bullshit note.

                And when someone gives asinine notes like this and the writer pushes back they're all, "you can't take it personal," or "you can't take the BRUTAL TRUTH," or, "you'll never make it if you can't take notes."

                It's all BULLSHIT. NO ONE has to accept abusive notes. And a writer should not bow down to some jerk who FEELS GOOD about themselves when they "rip a writer to shreds." That's not how notes work and it's certainly not the point of getting notes.

                That feedback is never helpful. All writers want honest feedback. No one wants to be humiliated in public or in private.

                I paid to have someone (won't say who) review a script a couple years ago, and her comments focused on the fact that she "couldn't believe that as a WOMAN I would depict women in such a gratuitous manner." I mean, can you be any more sexist? She totally went off on me.

                So first thing, I'm not here to PANDER to your BIASES.

                If i didn't have the self-confidence or conviction of purpose, that could have shut me down as a writer. If you know you have a bias don't take a writer's money and say, can't help the way i feel. A pro doesn't do that.

                Second, it's a ****ing serial killer movie where women are preyed upon-- violence against women is unavoidably built into the ****ing concept. It was completely unprofessional and it didn't take into account that all the women were strong characters that fought back. If you can't set your personal biases aside, and evaluate work professionally, you shouldn't be taking people's money and you shouldn't be offering notes. It's as disingenuous as it is dishonest.

                okay, so... rant done.

                Have a lovely day.
                FA4
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: A Note about Notes

                  Also some people are friends and writers -- and we don't always connect note wise. So you have to test some feedback people out and see if you gel at all.

                  So my style may piss you off and not help you and vice versa. So consider that.

                  All factors about the reader themselves (their POV) come into play. I like to get different POV, but sometimes we all gravitate to who gets our writing. If they hate Script X I wrote, they will never like my other stuff... so why even ask for their feedback on something I know they won't like....

                  If you paid for notes and got crapped on -- that sucks -- but it's a good lesson. These notes will happen throughout your career.

                  Having someone trash your script is slightly better than when a rep goes "I don't like this. Fix it." Thanks for much reps!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: A Note about Notes

                    If you're getting notes that just say hate this... hate that... hate this... then you got a person that you should never ask for feedback again. Paid or Unpaid. Don't get angry -- just never ask them again for notes. Say thank you. Or if you paid for notes -- feel free to tell them "thanks for nothing."

                    I can' t stress this enough. I didn't even make it that far in the industry -- but notes you'll get from reps, producers, directors, etc on your life's work -- will not be kind always or helpful or think about your intention or any of that... so prepare yourself young Jedi...

                    In a way this is how I feel about kid's getting participation trophies. You need to learn to lose so you know what winning looks like. That's just life.

                    Ideally you want to receive amazing notes with fixes from everyone you talk with -- but even if they follow that format -- what if they have bad ideas? Things you don't like? So in truth how is better to have a bad solution than no solution at all?

                    Many times I heard "you're the writers -- figure it out." That's most Hollywood like notes. They point out things they don't like and your job is to find a solution that works for you and them. Or if they are paying you -- sometimes you just do what they want.

                    I'm just always afraid of writers living in some fantasy world when it comes to criticism about their creative work -- stuff you would never expect in real life.

                    In real life you have friends and they always say the wrong things to me and i assume you. Your wife pisses you off. You boyfriend. Your boss is a jerk. You're co-worker just keeps picking on you. Why do we expect notes to be these perfect things when they are written by other humans? Often humans who aren't writers!

                    If any writer friend gives you half decent notes, they are a gem. If anyone gives great feedback -- like a babysitter -- never share them with anyone else.

                    To sum up you ignore notes you don't like (abusive? this is just feedback not real abuse) and do your best. Personal bias always comes into play including HOW you react to notes given. INTENTION is just another way of saying "I know better than the feedback person because it's MY story." As soon as you show your work to others -- you got to listen to what comes back and make it work for you and your career. It will not be a smooth ride. Ever.

                    I think most writers given up based solely on not being able to take feedback on the way up the mountain. You got to get hit and keep on going. And of course you have to trust yourself at some point. But if I trusted myself when I first started out I never would have made it as far as I did. I needed to take the hits to learn enough to know what good writing even looks like.

                    In case I'm not being clear. I'm on the writer's side always. I just see the journey as a bumpy one.
                    Last edited by Bono; 10-03-2019, 09:29 AM.

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                    • #70
                      Re: A Note about Notes

                      One big problem writers have when soliciting feedback is that they do it TOO LATE in the process.

                      They've spent months crafting this story and perfecting the script and only then ask for honest feedback. At that point, it's kinda too late for major structural change. A tiny note about Act 1 unwinds all of Act 3. Even when the writer tries to make major changes, it's hard. Echoes of old themes and character arcs hang out beneath the page and everything feels messy and disjointed.

                      The time to ask for "brutally honest" feedback is at the pitch or treatment stage. It's easier to implement the feedback because major changes can be put in within an hour. Also, everyone understands it's not a completed project and so the giving and receiving of the notes is a far more creative and collaborative process.

                      There's a reason why professional assignments require pitches and treatments. And, if nothing else, if you pitch your scripts to your friends BEFORE you write it, it'll be good practice for future pitches.

                      Once the script is done, the feedback you solicit can be far more targeted. "How did this moment feel...?" "Did this theme come through...?" "Did you like this character...?"

                      It creates more of a fine-tuning process rather than a rip-it-up process.

                      I know this is now veering into a discussion of "to pre-write vs not-to-pre-write" and "planners vs pantsers." But the screenplay structure is so constraining and finely-tuned, that I feel it's best to get guiding feedback early in the process.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: A Note about Notes

                        Yup... good notes are normally framed as a question IMO. I like notes when they're good. I know a good note when I'm like "Dang it... wish I'd thought of that" or "Dang it... they caught the THING I tried to slip past them."

                        But at a certain point you just gotta stand behind your fukkin work.

                        A writer buddy of mine was ADAMANT on a particular script of mine that it was a page 1. I'm like "Dude, there's no fukking way in hell I'm doing a page 1 on this... I like it." He's "Fine, it's okay as is, but would be a lot better if ____." Meaning if it was completely different and NOT what I wanted to write.

                        The script ultimately landed pretty well with the tastemakers. Got a few haters, but over all landed pretty good.

                        POINT: Fukk people who tell you it's a page 1. They just don't get you. Next.
                        Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: A Note about Notes

                          Oh and Twitter. Yup, way too fukkin precious for me. I fukk with it here and there, but I don't feel I'm allowed to be honest like I am here.

                          And I don't need a fukkin affirmation in order to be able write.

                          Here's the most Hollywood affirmation there could ever be (I was born here): "GO FUKK YOURSELF!"

                          Cool. Now go write something good and ignore that.
                          Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: A Note about Notes

                            Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                            Meh... Keep talking. Those are some of the best posts, the drunk ones. Ha!

                            But, yup, agreed. What is the INTENTION? I think that's what bugs me the most about notes. Very rarely does the note giver consider MY intention. Ummm... NO I DIDN'T DO IT WRONG I just did it DIFFERENTLY than how you'd do it, seeing as my life experience is different [You get that people are different, yeah?].

                            Which is why it's HARD for me to give notes. I'ma have lots of questions first. WHAT WERE YOU GOING FOR and WHY? To give serious notes I need to know that up front.

                            Notes on formating = EASY.

                            Notes on story = HARDER.

                            "BRUTALLY HONEST" implies "BRUTALLY RIGHT."

                            No! Bruh, it's still only your fukkin OPINION.
                            I disagree with you and FA4 on this point. I love you both, but we just aren't clicking on this. But I feel in our hearts, we are agreeing. Maybe it's just word choice.

                            I don't know how the hell you give notes with suggestions and have any chance of knowing what the writing was trying to do. I just say, this didn't work, try this. And ironically some of the posters here did that on notes given to me - so they aren't seeing that they do the same thing when given notes.

                            Focusing on me writing "brutally honest" when I could have wrote "honest and helpful" is BULLSH&T to me my friends. Take that!

                            Or saying using the word "you" is too harsh -- are we serious???? Of course all the notes are personal! They are about your creative work. All writers are going to take them personal. Am I crazy? (who said that???)

                            Now I know you meant attacking the writer themselves not the work -- but to me I think most writers take it as one and the same. If you only talk about the work -- trust me -- many writers see that as you telling them they are ugly and they have no worth.

                            Without Joe, it's really up to me to stir the pot. I'm enjoying this. I believe what I'm saying, but I could have also just let it go too. But I'm not. Because I'm making a point? Or I'm bored.

                            To circle back I was saying all these things you guys are posting about -- tell your feedback circle what you want before they give you notes. Your pet peeves. Don't tell me how to fix a scene, tell me what's wrong with scenes... think about what I was trying to do instead of what you would do....

                            I see intent like this. You give me a horror script. If I'm not scared, you failed. If you give me a comedy, If I didn't laugh, you failed for me. Now I can still gives notes -- but if I'm only judging by intention, I should say "I see you tried to make jokes on pages 1-120. Good job." Now comedy and horror are the two hardest genres because everyone has a different POV with it comes to what makes them laugh and what scares them. My favorite word SUBJECTIVE! Not my favorite word.

                            It's 100% easier to gives notes on drama, action, thriller, sci-fi.... they aren't easier to write -- but they are easier I feel to discuss fixes. When you get the note "make funnier" what the hell do you do with that? And I think I gave that note! Because I don't know how to fix it unless I rewrite it myself and then the writer won't find what I wrote funny either....

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: A Note about Notes

                              Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                              One big problem writers have when soliciting feedback is that they do it TOO LATE in the process.

                              They've spent months crafting this story and perfecting the script and only then ask for honest feedback. At that point, it's kinda too late for major structural change. A tiny note about Act 1 unwinds all of Act 3. Even when the writer tries to make major changes, it's hard. Echoes of old themes and character arcs hang out beneath the page and everything feels messy and disjointed.

                              The time to ask for "brutally honest" feedback is at the pitch or treatment stage. It's easier to implement the feedback because major changes can be put in within an hour. Also, everyone understands it's not a completed project and so the giving and receiving of the notes is a far more creative and collaborative process.

                              There's a reason why professional assignments require pitches and treatments. And, if nothing else, if you pitch your scripts to your friends BEFORE you write it, it'll be good practice for future pitches.

                              Once the script is done, the feedback you solicit can be far more targeted. "How did this moment feel...?" "Did this theme come through...?" "Did you like this character...?"

                              It creates more of a fine-tuning process rather than a rip-it-up process.

                              I know this is now veering into a discussion of "to pre-write vs not-to-pre-write" and "planners vs pantsers." But the screenplay structure is so constraining and finely-tuned, that I feel it's best to get guiding feedback early in the process.
                              This is a great post. I agree.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: A Note about Notes

                                Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                                Yup... good notes are normally framed as a question IMO. I like notes when they're good. I know a good note when I'm like "Dang it... wish I'd thought of that" or "Dang it... they caught the THING I tried to slip past them."

                                But at a certain point you just gotta stand behind your fukkin work.

                                A writer buddy of mine was ADAMANT on a particular script of mine that it was a page 1. I'm like "Dude, there's no fukking way in hell I'm doing a page 1 on this... I like it." He's "Fine, it's okay as is, but would be a lot better if ____." Meaning if it was completely different and NOT what I wanted to write.

                                The script ultimately landed pretty well with the tastemakers. Got a few haters, but over all landed pretty good.

                                POINT: Fukk people who tell you it's a page 1. They just don't get you. Next.
                                What if they say it's a page 2?

                                And more seriously -- what if they're right?

                                Stand up for your work and what you believe, but consider you may be wrong. It's not easy.

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