Scene with no dialogue

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  • #16
    Re: Scene with no dialogue

    Originally posted by Centos View Post
    I've heard good things about WriterDuet.

    Personal taste, but I think it reads a little too much like a list. A lot of sentences start with "she." I would try breaking it up a bit, show a little movement ... maybe something like this ... (very rough) ...

    Code:
        INT. STUDY - DAY
        
        Ashlynn enters the nearly empty room, carrying a large box.
        
        She opens a desk drawer, removes some military medals then
        carefully lays them inside the box.
        
        Moving to the wardrobe she picks out a military peaked cap,
        gives it a gentle wipe then places it on top of the medals.
        
        She unlocks the cabinet she takes out a hunting knife, adds it
        to the contents - then reaches for a re-framed picture of Bill 
        and Robbie from the fishing trip. She puts the picture in the 
        box after wrapping it in newspaper.
        
        Closing the box, she writes "Bill" on the front. Then she gets
        an American flag from the wardrobe, neatly folds it and drapes
        it over the box.
        
        She locks the door as she leaves.
        
        INT. GARAGE - DAY
        
        Ashlynn is setting the box on a shelf when Robbie enters.
    One other question regarding this. I have read that it is best to try and avoid -ing words which means not to use 'carrying', 'moving', wrapping' and 'closing'. Am I taking the words I have read a little too literally? I am basically trying to avoid any -ing words at all which does make it a little tricky in making the narrative more reader friendly.

    Shall I be a little more flexible from what I read?

    Thanks

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Scene with no dialogue

      Originally posted by Jab2019 View Post
      One other question regarding this. I have read that it is best to try and avoid -ing words which means not to use 'carrying', 'moving', wrapping' and 'closing'. Am I taking the words I have read a little too literally? I am basically trying to avoid any -ing words at all which does make it a little tricky in making the narrative more reader friendly.

      Shall I be a little more flexible from what I read?
      I think so, yes. Of course there are others who disagree. This gets discussed a lot, but I think by eliminating -ing verbs and conjunctions (like "and") you can end up with stilted ("grocery list") writing. When the action is fast and furious (and sentences are short and punchy) the -ing verbs would mostly be out of place but, when setting the scene or mood, I think they're often the best choice. And you'll find them used this way in pro scripts all the time.

      I've said this before (so it's redundant to most readers here), but I look at -ing verbs as "descriptive" (ongoing action) verbs. If you use the non -ing verbs for background action, it's hard to separate out what's important.

      Here's a couple short examples from the script Deja Vu. I've capitalized the "ING" in the -ing verbs.

      Code:
          Doug moves along amid a swirl of activity: ringING phones,
          ANALYSTS and ASSISTANTS rushING between desks, the frenzy of
          a crime unit in the wake of a national disaster.
          
          Doug's assistant, DONNELLY, falls in step alongside him.
          ...
          
          Doug is already dialING his own cell phone. Donnelly hands
          him something.
          ...
      In the first example Doug MOVES along and Donnelly FALLS in step, what the Analysts and Assistants and phones are doing is for description. You're not supposed to specifically take note of these actions. They're in the background.

      If instead you wrote without the -ing verbs in all instances, "Doug moves," "Analysts rush," "phones ring," "Donnelly falls in step," ... then the background action takes on more importance (more emphasis) than it should. Besides, "rushing" means ongoing action. If you say "Analysts rush" you naturally think they're rushing to do something SPECIFIC. (At least I do.)

      Same with the second example. "Doug is dialing," (ongoing action) but what the writer wants you to notice — now — is that Donnelly HANDS him something.

      At any rate, for what it's worth. I honestly don't know why some of these "rule gurus" want to cripple writers by telling them they can only use some parts of English language. Probably because people can (and often do) overuse -ing verbs when the action needs short punchy sentences. But they go overboard (in my opinion) by basically banning -ing verbs.
      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Scene with no dialogue

        when using "ing" i typically precede it with a verb for continuing action. at least, i think i do. haha.

        Joey runs into the woods, tripping over a dead body. He pushes up from the ground, wiping the mud from his face.

        not great, but you get the idea.
        "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Scene with no dialogue

          This is a screenplay, so you should "try" to attain perfect, present action tense by avoiding gerunds, but sometimes it's hard, and not even preferable. We've debated this ad nauseum to death over and over many times, here in this place.

          However, sometimes it makes sense. Take this example:

          She puts the picture in the box after wrapping it in newspaper.
          Isn't this better (and in the correct action order):
          She wraps the picture in newspaper, then puts it in the box.
          Frankly, I'd rewrite most of what you've written in an effort to explain why or how she's doing things. Some action verbs. And I don't mean harsh actions vs. soft. For instance, in the above example, "puts" is fairly bland. Maybe "tosses" or "lobs" are better verbs, that suggest something behind-the-scenes. Or "caresses it, before she puts", or "lays it gently" (out of some sort of deference to Bill and Robbie in the picture).

          What's behind what she's doing? Consider taking the effort to imply something more than just a description of the action - even for a scene as simple as seems to be the case in this one. Otherwise?

          My priority is always brevity, and you know your story so it's up to you as to how far to worry about this stuff. And in the end, sometimes there's nothing you can or should even do. But you should "try" to make every scene great, with some sort of subtext or underlying emotion behind every action (or dialogue).

          For instance, David Lynch would shoot this scene quite differently from Michael Bay, right? Just imagine!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Scene with no dialogue

            Once again I thank you all. I did find that by eradicating all -ing words the descriptions became stilted and dull. I will try to keep them to a minimal but not remove them simply to remove them.

            Thanks

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Scene with no dialogue

              Originally posted by catcon View Post
              This is a screenplay, so you should "try" to attain perfect, present action tense by avoiding gerunds, but sometimes it's hard, and not even preferable. We've debated this ad nauseum to death over and over many times, here in this place.
              Yep ... discussed many times. But again, I would say there is no "should" here. And gerunds and present participles aren't the same thing (though they can be hard to differentiate). A gerund is (basically) a verb turned into a noun by using -ing. An -ing present participle phrase is a verb modifying the subject (which, I guess, is why I think of them as descriptive verbs). The English language is flexible and using different sentence structures for different situations is how you develop flow, pacing and mood. And I think it's silly to (figuratively) cut off one hand and say "Unlike other writing forms, it's preferable to use only hand when typing a screenplay."

              Originally posted by catcon View Post
              However, sometimes it makes sense. Take this example:

              She puts the picture in the box after wrapping it in newspaper.
              Isn't this better (and in the correct action order):

              She wraps the picture in newspaper, then puts it in the box.
              On its own, yes. But take fifteen sentences in a row that use the same structure and guess what you get? Stilted ("grocery list") style writing. My writing degraded when I tried to attain a "perfect, present tense" writing style from start to finish. Writing naturally flows from longer, more descriptive sentences to short punchy sentences when moving from mood-setting description to fast-paced action. For me it's tiring to read a screenplay in all "perfect present tense." It reads like a grocery list.

              Here's another excerpt from Deja Vu, basically continuous action, except I haven't typed the dialogue. Note how the writers use "stand" and "standing" (and "ring" and "ringing") here. In my mind there is a good reason for that. (Again, -ing is capitalized by me in certain verbs.)

              Code:
                  Doug looks past the cadets — near the dock, a SHELL SHOCKED
                  WOMAN is standING alone, looking lost as the chaos swirls
                  around her.
                  ...
                  
                  Doug turns. Another agent, ANDREW PRYZWARRA, stands there,
                  notebook over his head in the rain.
                  ...
                  
                  Pryzwarra registers the rebuff. He looks out — nearby, the
                  shell-shocked Woman is still standING alone, cryING in the
                  rain. Przywarra starts to move toward her.
                  ...
                  
                  The sudden muffled sound of a CELL PHONE. Both men turn —
                  
                  They're standING near a LINE OF BODIES laid out by
                  paramedics. The cell phone RINGS AGAIN, inside one of the
                  body bags. Never to be answered.
                  
                  Doug stares at it. Then he turns away, back toward his car.
                  Pryzwarra stares at the body bag, cell phone still RINGING.
                  ...
              Again, you can see the function of the -ing verbs here. They serve to describe the background action (i.e., modifies the subject), while allowing the present tense verbs to stand out and grab our attention. Specifically note the use of "stands" when the writers introduce Andrew Pryzwarra ... "...ANDREW PRYZWARRA, stands there..." So why didn't they use "stand" or "stands" when they introduce the shell-shocked Woman? ("...a SHELL SHOCKED WOMAN is standING alone...") Because the focus is Doug's action ... he "looks," whereas the woman's "action" (standing) is descriptive. When Doug meets Andrew, "stands" is used because 1) he suddenly realizes that Andrew is there (not ongoing action) and 2) the focus of action is on Doug, we're not describing him.

              The same goes for the cell phone. When it "RINGS AGAIN" that's the focus, not Doug and Andrew who are "standING." Then, in the last paragraph, Pryzwarra "stares" (focus on him again) while the phone continues "ringing" (which is now descriptive, setting the mood).

              I know, I'm probably just confusing the issue. But I think it's important that writers NOT cripple themselves because of arbitrary writing "rules" dictating what the "shouldn't do."
              Last edited by Centos; 06-24-2019, 02:16 PM.
              STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Scene with no dialogue

                Originally posted by Jab2019 View Post
                Once again I thank you all. I did find that by eradicating all -ing words the descriptions became stilted and dull. I will try to keep them to a minimal but not remove them simply to remove them.
                Which is exactly what happened to my writing when I tried to apply this "rule." This is mostly why I'm so outspoken about the "-ing rule." Personal experience.
                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Scene with no dialogue

                  Originally posted by Centos View Post
                  ...I know, I'm probably just confusing the issue...
                  Nope! You took us to school. Never too old to learn - if not the what, then at least the why. Thanks!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Scene with no dialogue

                    Can I ask, without sounding judgmental, who is a screenwriter who is commercially successful? This, out of everyone who responds.

                    Not to question what anyone does but I am trying to find the answer from people who have sold and I can see their work on screen.

                    If you haven't, without prejudice, why not?

                    I'm trying to suss it all out.

                    Thanks

                    J

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Scene with no dialogue

                      Originally posted by Jab2019 View Post
                      Can I ask, without sounding judgmental, who is a screenwriter who is commercially successful? This, out of everyone who responds.
                      I've never sold anything. I haven't tried to sell anything because I haven't had anything worth selling. I've written about 400 short scripts (which wouldn't sell even if they were any good) and one terrible full-length feature screenplay. That's it. (My signature says it all.)

                      There are some pros who post here, however (used to be more when the forums were busier). And there are a few who are probably on the cusp.
                      STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Scene with no dialogue

                        INT. HOUSE - DAY

                        Ashlynn walks into the study with a large box. The study is near empty but for a few remaining items. She takes out stuff to pack up.

                        She opens a draw and gently removes some military medals, from the wardrobe she takes out a military peaked cap gives it a gentle wipe, then she takes a hunting knife from a locked cabinet...

                        MOMENTS LATER

                        Finally she reaches for a picture of Bill and Robbie from the fishing trip. It has been reframed.

                        She wraps it in newspaper and lays that picture in the box that already contains the cap, medals and knife inside.

                        She closes the box and writes "BILL" on the front.

                        INT. GARAGE - LATER

                        She places the box down and places a neatly folded American Flag on top of it. She closes the garage door as Robbie pulls up in the driveway.

                        EXT. HOUSE - DAY

                        Robbie talks to...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Scene with no dialogue

                          Rewriting scenes is like catnip to idiots like me.

                          It seemed like the box and Ashlynn's hands were the main characters in this scene, so that's what I focused on. I was trying to get rid of some of the "She... in the box" lines.

                          Anyway, for what's it worth, which isn't a lot.


                          INT. DEN - DAY

                          A large box sits on the floor of the nearly empty room.

                          From a drawer, Ashlynn removes military medals and carefully
                          folds them before putting them in the box.

                          She gently wipes a military peaked cap from the wardrobe, and
                          also puts it in. Next a hunting knife from a locking cabinet.

                          Finally, a picture of Bill and Robbie from the fishing trip.
                          It is re-framed. She wraps it in newspaper and places it in
                          the box.

                          Ashlynn closes it up and writes "BILL" on it.

                          From the wardrobe she removes an American flag, neatly folds
                          it and drapes it on top of the box.
                          "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Scene with no dialogue

                            Stop worrying about it all so much.

                            Write action or description in a normal fashion. Keep each paragraph no longer than four lines (most of the time) just to keep the page from having a dense look.

                            Usually four lines are enough to contain a discrete action or a set of closely related actions or descriptions.

                            Do not overthink this.

                            Download Craig Mazin's five Chernobyl scripts. Truly, I think that Craig broke every rule in the book about how to write a script (though I do not remember any specifics about his paragraph lengths; I would have to go back and check).

                            Stop worrying so much. Just write and make it look like a screenplay.

                            "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Scene with no dialogue

                              Originally posted by ComicBent View Post
                              Stop worrying about it all so much.
                              great advice.

                              Write action or description in a normal fashion. Keep each paragraph no longer than four lines (most of the time) just to keep the page from having a dense look.
                              one, two and three lines mostly. occasional 4 lines when absolutely necessary to the story. this should an exception.

                              Usually four lines are enough to contain a discrete action or a set of closely related actions or descriptions.

                              Do not overthink this.

                              Download Craig Mazin's five Chernobyl scripts. Truly, I think that Craig broke every rule in the book about how to write a script (though I do not remember any specifics about his paragraph lengths; I would have to go back and check).

                              Stop worrying so much. Just write and make it look like a screenplay.
                              as far as Mazin is concerned, he didn't break any rules, because there are no rules. i agree with him.

                              this belief in rules holds writers back. i believe that. i break the 'rules' all the time. it doesn't concern me a bit, and i've never had an exec say, "she shouldn't do this," more often it was, "i can see why you want to work with her," and, "great writing."

                              what matters is a story well told.

                              you do have to make good choices in the way you deliver the story. never taking the reader out of it-- always engaging the reader emotionally, intellectually, and in an entertaining way.

                              episode one of Chernobyl has 8 paragraphs with 4 lines, roughly one in every 6.75 pages. two 5 liners or one every 27 pages.

                              the rest of the paragraphs are 1, 2, and three lines.

                              good to keep in mind, i think.
                              "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Scene with no dialogue

                                Originally posted by Jab2019 View Post
                                Hi Guys,

                                Please see below what I have written and maybe this will help with my answer. It doesn't read entirely exciting as I constantly have to use the word 'box'. All the items have a reason for being put into the box also.

                                So, any advice is gratefully received.

                                Thanks

                                J

                                Int.house-DAY

                                Ashlynn walks into the study with a large box. The study is near empty but for a few remaining items.

                                She opens a draw and gently removes some military medals. She carefully puts them in the box.

                                From the wardrobe she takes out a military peaked cap, gives it a gentle wipe and places it in the box.

                                She takes a hunting knife from a locked cabinet and adds it to the box.

                                She reaches for the picture of Bill and Robbie from the fishing trip. It has been re framed. She wraps it in newspaper and lays it in the box.

                                She closes the box and writes Bill on the front.

                                She reaches into the wardrobe and removes an American flag. She neatly folds it and drapes it on top of the box.

                                She carries the box downstairs and places it in the garage as Robbie arrives home.
                                You can cut this back with a few edits. Starting each sentence with "She" and repeating "box" is redundant. You can enter the scene later by starting in the study with Ashlynn already in the process of packing the box. Also -- the last line is a new scene in the garage.

                                Never underestimate how much a reader's mind will fill in. If I tell you she's packing a box, I don't need to tell you each item is going into the box because that's been established in line one.

                                Hope this helps.
                                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                                Comment

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