Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

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  • Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

    In a script I'm writing, on the middle of page 9 we meet a minor character, JOE (50), at his office. Cut to the next scene, bottom of page 9, thousands of miles away, and we meet a major character, BILL (20), at his apartment.

    Seven pages later, we learn that Joe is Bill's dad. It's not some big REVEAL. Rather, there's just no reason on the screen to show that relationship when the characters are introduced.

    My problem: I've gotten some as-the-reader-reads notes that say, "Why are you jumping from this man at his office, to this kid at his apartment?"

    So I'm thinking of introducing these 2 characters with both their first and last names - because if the reader knows the characters have the same last name, they'll suspect there's some familial relationship, and that could temper that issue. (I intro all the other characters with just first names.)

    And so, "JOE HOFACRE (50)..." Then in the next scene, "BILL HOFACRE (20)..."

    OTOH, doing that leaves something dangling: The reader knows they're related on page 9; but the audience doesn't. As a reader, would that stop you at all?

    I'm not looking for some Rule. Rather, just looking for the best way to achieve clarity.

    Any comments about this "cheat"?

  • #2
    Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

    How about introducing Bill as:

    BILL HOFACRE (20), Joe's son... etc.

    Late Night Writer

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    • #3
      Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

      Originally posted by Manchester View Post
      In a script I'm writing, on the middle of page 9 we meet a minor character, JOE (50), at his office. Cut to the next scene, bottom of page 9, thousands of miles away, and we meet a major character, BILL (20), at his apartment.

      Seven pages later, we learn that Joe is Bill's dad. It's not some big REVEAL. Rather, there's just no reason on the screen to show that relationship when the characters are introduced.

      My problem: I've gotten some as-the-reader-reads notes that say, "Why are you jumping from this man at his office, to this kid at his apartment?"

      So I'm thinking of introducing these 2 characters with both their first and last names - because if the reader knows the characters have the same last name, they'll suspect there's some familial relationship, and that could temper that issue. (I intro all the other characters with just first names.)

      And so, "JOE HOFACRE (50)..." Then in the next scene, "BILL HOFACRE (20)..."

      OTOH, doing that leaves something dangling: The reader knows they're related on page 9; but the audience doesn't. As a reader, would that stop you at all?

      I'm not looking for some Rule. Rather, just looking for the best way to achieve clarity.

      Any comments about this "cheat"?
      Unless you're planning on running subtitles under these characters in the finished film -- it definitely is a cheat.

      If the objection you're getting is -- why jump from this person to that person, then identifying the connection "in the text" isn't answering that objection any more than writing in the text "this old guy is going to later turn out to be the guy who's plotting to kill the younger guy --we'll find this out around page seventy."

      Thanks for telling us -- us meaning the people who are reading the script, but how will help someone watching the movie?

      Because that's what you always need to be mindful of -- your goal should be to try to create an experience for a reader that approximates (within the limits of a work of prose) as closely as possible the experience of someone watching the movie.

      So when you give the reader information that a viewer of the finished film couldn't possibly get -- yes, you're cheating.

      If your goal is to convey that the two men are related, there are any number of simple ways to do it -- a shared family photo on a mantle probably being the most obvious.

      That's something that both a reader and an audience member will both be able to share.

      NMS

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      • #4
        Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

        I was also going to suggest the family photo and then noticed that's what NMS said. I feel though, that if you don't want to do that and you do just want to use first and last names, I wouldn't consider that a problem because it's common to introduce people with first and last names, and because you said it's not a big reveal anyway.


        Originally posted by Manchester View Post
        In a script I'm writing, on the middle of page 9 we meet a minor character, JOE (50), at his office. Cut to the next scene, bottom of page 9, thousands of miles away, and we meet a major character, BILL (20), at his apartment.

        Seven pages later, we learn that Joe is Bill's dad. It's not some big REVEAL. Rather, there's just no reason on the screen to show that relationship when the characters are introduced.

        My problem: I've gotten some as-the-reader-reads notes that say, "Why are you jumping from this man at his office, to this kid at his apartment?"

        So I'm thinking of introducing these 2 characters with both their first and last names - because if the reader knows the characters have the same last name, they'll suspect there's some familial relationship, and that could temper that issue. (I intro all the other characters with just first names.)

        And so, "JOE HOFACRE (50)..." Then in the next scene, "BILL HOFACRE (20)..."

        OTOH, doing that leaves something dangling: The reader knows they're related on page 9; but the audience doesn't. As a reader, would that stop you at all?

        I'm not looking for some Rule. Rather, just looking for the best way to achieve clarity.

        Any comments about this "cheat"?
        Last edited by Joaneasley; 07-28-2013, 06:26 PM. Reason: Hadn't read NMS' reply when I first replied.

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        • #5
          Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

          Slightly random counterpoint, but...

          I recently watched, then read, Jenny Lumet's Rachel Getting Married; it's a good example for this kind of issue as pretty much every character is related in some way (it being a wedding...)

          In the opening scenes Kym's dad is introduced in the action, even though it's several pages before she calls him dad. From their dialogue/interaction it's pretty obvious this is her father, but the reader is tipped off from the get-go. We also have stuff like 'EMMA (Rachel's best friend) is blah-blah-ing' - so relationships are stated in action rather than visibly demonstrated to the audience. Again, the onscreen action makes it fairly obvious that this is Rachel's best friend, but you could easily argue this is a 'cheat'.

          It's funny, but nobody thinks twice about reading a play that opens with a Dramatis Personae outlining all the relationships before the curtains have even opened.
          My stuff

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          • #6
            Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

            We're meeting the characters of Rachel Getting Married at the wedding, and as you point out, the mentioning of who is what to whom in the action lines becomes clear quickly enough from the way they act towards each other anyway.

            You introduce father and son in successive scenes but miles apart. If you want, you could do a match cut from a father-son or a family picture on the dad's desk at the end of his scene to the same picture on a table at the start of the scene in the son's apartment. That's one way to establish an instant connection visually that you could use to show in the two scenes how much alike father and son are, or perhaps how very different they are from each other.

            Or you could decide you want to have no picture so people wonder a little bit who this young guy is -- not a bad thing in the early part of a movie -- and they'll get a pleasant little "Oh" response later when they find out.

            Or you could decide one subtle picture in the dad's office is just enough. It's all in the reader/viewer experience you want to design.

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            • #7
              Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

              Is this an experienced reader who gave this note? Did he re-address it later in the notes, after the connection was established? Has anyone else reading the script had a problem with the same issue? Perhaps establishing a connection between the two characters isn't the problem, but rather creating a better/smoother transition from one scene to the other?
              "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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              • #8
                Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                a cheat but a minor one, I really wouldn't worry about it. You'd rather it be clear to the reader than risk them not getting the relationship.
                Write, rite, wright... until you get it RIGHT.

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                • #9
                  Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                  Thanks to all for the comments/suggestions.

                  Originally posted by cshel View Post
                  Is this an experienced reader who gave this note? Did he re-address it later in the notes, after the connection was established? Has anyone else reading the script had a problem with the same issue?
                  Yes, 2 experienced readers. (And as is usual in my experience - No, there never is a follow-up. No, "Oh, now I see" or the like.)

                  And I've seen others get the same kind of note when they've had early scenes that jump from one set of characters to another without any immediate indication as to how they are related (by blood or simply plot-wise).

                  [rant] I mean, jeez, people. They're characters in the same script. Assume you're gonna find out that they have some connection to each other and what it is. And if when you do find out what that connection is, if it's not satisfying, then beat the crap out of me.[/rant]

                  IOW - Frankly, I think this kinda note is a stupid note.

                  OK, then why am I trying to "fix" it?

                  Well, if I visited my grandmother every Sunday and made her tea, and she didn't want it "too hot" or "too cold", I'd bring along an instant-read thermometer so I could get it just right.

                  I try to think of readers as Grandma. Especially when I get back notes. (As a rule, I don't tell Grandma to go screw herself.)

                  It's why, even though I am not against deviations from formatting per "The Screenwriter's Bible" (I've found John August's blog posts about clear, non-standard formatting to be amazingly helpful), I stick to "standard form" when I can. At least for the first 20 pages or so, as I (as a newbie) try to establish trust with the reader. (But, but, but - Clarity always trumps "standard form".)

                  So here, if there's a way to do a "better" jump from dad, to someone else (who happens to be his son), I'd like to do it. Again, even if that note is stupid.

                  Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
                  If your goal is to convey that the two men are related, there are any number of simple ways to do it -- a shared family photo on a mantle probably being the most obvious.
                  As it happens, that is the very first part of the "reveal" 7 pages later.

                  Also, one thing I did not mention above: In the initial scenes, when there's a cut from the father to the son, it's a cut from dad wincing at bad news, to the son wincing from his roommate punching him in the arm. So, on screen there could be some visual sense of the relationship if the actors look similar.

                  Anyway, NMS - Taking in your entire post (thanks), I have a question. You think my "cheat" is a cheat, plain and simple (and bad). That said, if you saw that cheat in a script, would it (likely) make you stop?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                    Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                    Thanks to all for the comments/suggestions.


                    Yes, 2 experienced readers. (And as is usual in my experience - No, there never is a follow-up. No, "Oh, now I see" or the like.)

                    And I've seen others get the same kind of note when they've had early scenes that jump from one set of characters to another without any immediate indication as to how they are related (by blood or simply plot-wise).

                    [rant] I mean, jeez, people. They're characters in the same script. Assume you're gonna find out that they have some connection to each other and what it is. And if when you do find out what that connection is, if it's not satisfying, then beat the crap out of me.[/rant]

                    IOW - Frankly, I think this kinda note is a stupid note.

                    OK, then why am I trying to "fix" it?

                    Well, if I visited my grandmother every Sunday and made her tea, and she didn't want it "too hot" or "too cold", I'd bring along an instant-read thermometer so I could get it just right.

                    I try to think of readers as Grandma. Especially when I get back notes. (As a rule, I don't tell Grandma to go screw herself.)

                    It's why, even though I am not against deviations from formatting per "The Screenwriter's Bible" (I've found John August's blog posts about clear, non-standard formatting to be amazingly helpful), I stick to "standard form" when I can. At least for the first 20 pages or so, as I (as a newbie) try to establish trust with the reader. (But, but, but - Clarity always trumps "standard form".)

                    So here, if there's a way to do a "better" jump from dad, to someone else (who happens to be his son), I'd like to do it. Again, even if that note is stupid.


                    As it happens, that is the very first part of the "reveal" 7 pages later.

                    Also, one thing I did not mention above: In the initial scenes, when there's a cut from the father to the son, it's a cut from dad wincing at bad news, to the son wincing from his roommate punching him in the arm. So, on screen there could be some visual sense of the relationship if the actors look similar.

                    Anyway, NMS - Taking in your entire post (thanks), I have a question. You think my "cheat" is a cheat, plain and simple (and bad). That said, if you saw that cheat in a script, would it (likely) make you stop?
                    I don't know necessarily that it would be a script killer, but since it's one of those things that was drummed into me in film school -- "how do we know this?" that I have always carry the classic "cheat line" sort of imprinted in my head:

                    "JOHN and and his sister MARY, both in their twenties, are sitting at the table having breakfast together."

                    Now we know that they're brother and sister -- because the writer just told us. But how in the world does the audience know, seeing a man and woman sitting at a table together having breakfast, that they're adult brother and sister, rather than spouses or boyfriend and girl friend.

                    That is, whoever writes a line like that thinks that he's done something -- he's conveyed their relationship. But he's actually done nothing -- because the job isn't to "tell" the reader stuff. It's to show things to the putative viewer.

                    And what's worse, there are writers who sometimes think that having done the former, that there's no need to to do the latter.

                    So my radar is always out for John and his sister Mary and all such examples of writers who are not quite doing their jobs -- telling us, the reader, stuff that they haven't quite figured out how to convey to the viewer in some better way.

                    NMS

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                    • #11
                      Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                      The problem for the reader(s) is not how you label the characters in the script but understanding how their relationship is revealed in the story. What matters is how the audience gets the information that they are father and son and this information needs to be exposed on screen. As NMS explains above, the script needs to replicate the audience experience so you can not rely on a script note or description to explain the relationship, it needs to reveal via story and when this works the reader will get it.
                      "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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                      • #12
                        Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                        Can't you just put a photo of the son on the father's desk or something?
                        Chicks Who Script podcast

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                        • #13
                          Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                          Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                          [rant] I mean, jeez, people. They're characters in the same script. Assume you're gonna find out that they have some connection to each other and what it is. And if when you do find out what that connection is, if it's not satisfying, then beat the crap out of me.[/rant]
                          I've got to agree with you here. The only way this would become an issue (to me) is if the minor character (the Dad) has no real reason to exist in the story except for the fact that he is related the major character (the Son). If that's the case then I don't see any real reason to introduce him until the "reveal" on page 9. But, if he's doing something vital to the plot of the story, then I don't see why it matters whether or not we know he's the Father in his first scene.
                          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                            Originally posted by Centos View Post
                            I've got to agree with you here. The only way this would become an issue (to me) is if the minor character (the Dad) has no real reason to exist in the story except for the fact that he is related the major character (the Son). If that's the case then I don't see any real reason to introduce him until the "reveal" on page 9. But, if he's doing something vital to the plot of the story, then I don't see why it matters whether or not we know he's the Father in his first scene.

                            There's another issue at work here. Audiences watching a movie don't remain passive. They're trying to figure things out as they go.

                            Obviously, when you see a scene with Character One and then a scene with Character Two, you're going to figure that, at some point, these two characters are going to have something to do with one another -- or at any rate, they're both going to have something to do with the larger story that's unfolding.

                            But an audience isn't going to simply sit and wait for you to tell them what. They're going to try to figure out what that "something" is.

                            And maybe they'll guess right and maybe they'll guess wrong. But they will guess something. And if they guess wrong that wrong guess may take them down some completely wrong garden path of what's going on and where the story is headed.

                            Now, there's nothing wrong with that -- if that's what you want. Lots of stories are about intentionally misdirecting the audience.

                            But sometimes a writer will misdirect an audience by mistake -- and then, ten pages later, when the facts come out, and the audience realizes -- oh, you mean that old guy that I thought was a hit man is actually the kid's father? Gee, I guess this is actually a completely different movie than what I thought it was.

                            It's a tricky thing knowing what information you have to give the audience and when. And part of trying to figure it out is asking yourself what questions a viewer is going to ask as they're presented by each new scene as it comes up.

                            Inevitably, the appearance of a new character in a new context is going to make them ask -- who is this person and how is he going to fit into the story? And they won't wait. They'll try to come up with some working theory. If you're lucky, it'll be the theory you want (whether the right theory or not).

                            But if you haven't anticipated this, it may be the wrong theory and that means that you're telling one story on screen, and they're actually seeing a different story in their heads.

                            I'll give you an example. There's a science fiction horror movie movie called, Event Horizon. Sam Neill plays this scientist who's wife has recently committed suicide but he's called on to join this mission to investigate a faster than light ship that has disappeared some time ago and now has mysteriously reappeared -- and a whole bunch of scary stuff happens.

                            But quite early on, just as Neill's character is being introduced, they cut to a shot of him by himself, grinning in a kind of sinister way. As it turns out, this is simply a cut-away to way later in the movie, from when weird creepy stuff is happening (at least I'm pretty sure it is).

                            But as I was watching it, I didn't realize that, and watching it unfold -- you've heard that his wife had committed suicide, then you get this shot of him with this creepy smile. I was sure that he was some kind of bad guy, that he had some sort of creepy ulterior motive on board ship.

                            And I was three-quarters of the way through the movie before I realized -- oh, no. He doesn't. That shot must have just been cut in there from somewhere for some reason. He's not a bad guy. Maybe's he's going to be possessed or something -- it must be coming up.

                            But, boy -- that one shot totally skewed my whole experience of watching that movie.

                            So when someone tells you that something you've written is confusing or that they're not getting something, or when two people tell you that -- you should take that seriously.

                            Unless you have good reason for them *not* to get it.

                            NMS

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                            • #15
                              Re: Introducing father and son chars with both first & last names

                              Originally posted by Manchester View Post
                              Also, one thing I did not mention above: In the initial scenes, when there's a cut from the father to the son, it's a cut from dad wincing at bad news, to the son wincing from his roommate punching him in the arm. So, on screen there could be some visual sense of the relationship if the actors look similar.
                              I wonder if this has caused the confusion... the cut from an older man wincing to a younger man wincing... the readers might think that it's cutting to a younger version of the same character?
                              "Writing is easy. All you do is sit staring at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead"... Gene Fowler

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