Degree of Difficulty

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  • Degree of Difficulty

    So I kind of think about screenwriting as akin to gymnastics. Especially when you're trying to make it as that first time writer. Getting your foot in the door, getting read, getting repped, getting optioned.

    To me, the stuff that defines the degree of difficulty are things that are secondary to the story and plot, but vital to the actual script. Things we talk about on these boards all the damn time.

    Things like genre, tone, voice, length of script, number of characters, number of subplots, rating, budget, etc.

    For example: you want to write a romantic-action-dramedy, with a cast of over two dozen characters, that's going to clock in around 150 pages, that has so much profanity and sex and violence it verges on being NC-17, and there's no way it will cost less than $80mil.

    Yes, I know this is an extreme example.

    But here's the thing -- it's not *that* extreme. Let's say the degree of difficulty of that script is a 10, and it's a difficult script to write, and it takes 18 months to finish, and when you finally get it to the point when you literally can't make it any better you score 4 points out of 10 on the execution.

    Now take the guy who just wrote a contained thriller with four characters, it's lean and mean at 100 pages, and it reads like a house on fire. Sure, it's not that hard of a script to write. Anybody could do it. Degree of difficulty is a 5 out of 10.

    But he nailed that script, he nailed the story, and he got a perfect score. 5 out of 5.

    Who has the better script? Who has the better chance of getting a rep? Optioning it? Starting a career?

    It's something I always think about any time I start a new script:

    What's my degree of difficulty here? And can I stick the landing?

    What's yours? Can you?

  • #2
    Re: Degree of Difficulty

    This is a very interesting premise you're posing. However, I feel like the 1 to 10 scale you're talking about is what's challenging for the writer that's mostly disassociated with what the reader/audience wants.

    In some ways, I feel that the more difficult the routine is here, the more the writer will be penalized. UNLESS that difficulty is the hook. Say, THE RUSSIAN ARK where the entire movie is done in a single take. Or BURIED where the entire story is a man in a coffin.

    When I think of a difficult script that's executed well, I think of Travis Beachem's KILLING ON CARNIVAL ROW that was extremely difficult. And perhaps only that writer could've executed it well. But that's not a movie that will ever get made.

    So that's a 10 on difficulty with the writer getting 9 out of 10 points, let's say.

    Now there are all these Blacklist scripts that bore the piss out of me. The 20-something male-female "how do we define our relationship" scripts. It seems that you can have that initial launch of a career with the "I Want to Fvck Your Sister" or "Fvck Buddy" kind of a script because it's easy to score 5 out of 5.

    But three to five years from now, Beachem is working on big movies. And you don't remember these people who wrote these 5 out of 5 scripts.


    EDIT TO ADD: I would give added difficulty bonus to first-time writers who can write scripts that force us to re-evaluate a genre. Now I'm not a Chris Sparling fan but he's certainly done that with BURIED and ATM. Simon Kinberg went from no-list to A-list with MR AND MRS SMITH because it was to this decade what LETHAL WEAPON was in the 80s.

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    • #3
      Re: Degree of Difficulty

      A lot of degree of difficult just comes down to reader/audience expectations; if you exceed them the most, you'll have the better script.

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      • #4
        Re: Degree of Difficulty

        Originally posted by Hamboogul View Post
        This is a very interesting premise you're posing. However, I feel like the 1 to 10 scale you're talking about is what's challenging for the writer that's mostly disassociated with what the reader/audience wants.

        In some ways, I feel that the more difficult the routine is here, the more the writer will be penalized. UNLESS that difficulty is the hook. Say, THE RUSSIAN ARK where the entire movie is done in a single take. Or BURIED where the entire story is a man in a coffin.

        When I think of a difficult script that's executed well, I think of Travis Beachem's KILLING ON CARNIVAL ROW that was extremely difficult. And perhaps only that writer could've executed it well. But that's not a movie that will ever get made.

        So that's a 10 on difficulty with the writer getting 9 out of 10 points, let's say.

        Now there are all these Blacklist scripts that bore the piss out of me. The 20-something male-female "how do we define our relationship" scripts. It seems that you can have that initial launch of a career with the "I Want to Fvck Your Sister" or "Fvck Buddy" kind of a script because it's easy to score 5 out of 5.

        But three to five years from now, Beachem is working on big movies. And you don't remember these people who wrote these 5 out of 5 scripts.


        EDIT TO ADD: I would give added difficulty bonus to first-time writers who can write scripts that force us to re-evaluate a genre. Now I'm not a Chris Sparling fan but he's certainly done that with BURIED and ATM. Simon Kinberg went from no-list to A-list with MR AND MRS SMITH because it was to this decade what LETHAL WEAPON was in the 80s.
        Interesting. I wonder if it's a matter of varying your entries. Like don't only focus on super hard scripts. Write the hell out of something easier, and have a spectacular, once-in-a-lifetime, 10-out-of-10 script waiting behind it to make people go absolutely nuts for it.

        Although I did it in the opposite manner. The script that got me repped (not the first script I wrote) was a much more difficult script to write, than my first script.

        I'm not sure I have an answer. I'm never sure I ever have any answers. It's just always been at the back of my mind since I started writing, and was curious if others had a similar thought process / experience.

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        • #5
          Re: Degree of Difficulty

          I don't know the answers either. Dan Fogelman's last 4 to 5 sales all feel like a 5 in terms of difficulty. But he executed them so goddamn well that I love his writing... despite how mundane his stories tend to be.

          But then you read these sci-fi fantasy adventures that are so ambitious and the writer doesn't have the skills for it. And you immediately give up after 5 pages. I'm not a fan of the script but many people here probably think ALL YOU NEED IS KILL is more 10 than a 5 in difficulty. And that guy clearly executed it well. So let's say he got 8 out of 9 possible points.

          I'm babbling, I think.

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          • #6
            Re: Degree of Difficulty

            Originally posted by F.Scott.Frazier View Post
            Interesting. I wonder if it's a matter of varying your entries. Like don't only focus on super hard scripts. Write the hell out of something easier, and have a spectacular, once-in-a-lifetime, 10-out-of-10 script waiting behind it to make people go absolutely nuts for it.

            Although I did it in the opposite manner. The script that got me repped (not the first script I wrote) was a much more difficult script to write, than my first script.

            I'm not sure I have an answer. I'm never sure I ever have any answers. It's just always been at the back of my mind since I started writing, and was curious if others had a similar thought process / experience.

            Edit to add: my most recent script that got me repped was probably a 8 in difficulty. And I probably scored 3 on it. But the managers have since guided me along to make the script a 7 while also increasing the difficulty level to 9. And another script I just completed is a single-room, real time script in the vein of Stanford Prison Experiment or 12 Angry Men. Depending on how one looks at it, it's either a 9 in difficulty or a 5. My execution... who knows.

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            • #7
              Re: Degree of Difficulty

              Frazier, when I read your post the film ARMORED came to mind immediately.

              For me it comes down to justification. Does each scene in my screenplay serve the premise, no more, no less? If I'm writing a script along the lines of ALIENS, I have to make absolutely certain that each scene is purposeful and has substance. This is a script that has 200 mil budget written all over it. I cannot have chunks explode just because it fits the genre. It must fit the story.
              "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
              - Screenwriting Friend

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              • #8
                Re: Degree of Difficulty

                Originally posted by Hamboogul View Post
                EDIT TO ADD: I would give added difficulty bonus to first-time writers who can write scripts that force us to re-evaluate a genre. Now I'm not a Chris Sparling fan but he's certainly done that with BURIED and ATM. Simon Kinberg went from no-list to A-list with MR AND MRS SMITH because it was to this decade what LETHAL WEAPON was in the 80s.
                I don't agree with you on Sparling, but I have to agree with Kinberg.
                Thank you for reading my opinion.

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                • #9
                  Re: Degree of Difficulty

                  Originally posted by Hamboogul View Post
                  But then you read these sci-fi fantasy adventures that are so ambitious and the writer doesn't have the skills for it. And you immediately give up after 5 pages. I'm not a fan of the script but many people here probably think ALL YOU NEED IS KILL is more 10 than a 5 in difficulty. And that guy clearly executed it well. So let's say he got 8 out of 9 possible points.

                  I'm babbling, I think.

                  I dread that I'm falling into that trap of writing an ambitious HOOK but it's the only reason I want to write this particular story at this particular time. Sometimes, that's what I think it'll take. Sometimes, the challenge in itself conjures the idea that someone will recognize the effort even when the execution is mediocre and be rewarded or at the least be cultivated in order to develop more stories. Whether or not it leads to a career or representation or getting it produced, I just don't know.

                  Balls.
                  Last edited by Angeloworx; 04-23-2011, 03:26 PM. Reason: Added more balls.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Degree of Difficulty

                    I think physiology and one's genetics (and i mean DNA) has a lot to do with writing a difficult and executable script such as Nolan's Inception, Memento, Prestige; and say Beachem's Killing on Carnival Row.

                    Everyone's brain is wired in a certain way, genetically. This is why some people could see numbers like no other and solve complex problems and how others could see clearly in three dimensions and become great architects.

                    Some people could twist and turn a plot in a hundred different ways and create a fantastic script while others cannot, and stick to simple stories that on there own become great.

                    This is not to say that those that don't have these genetic traits can't create great scripts or mathematical derivations; they just do it differently.

                    Ridley Scott and Steven Spielberg cannot write for their lives. Their brains are just wired like that for some reason but then you have PT thomas and wes anderson that could do both, not saying one is better than the other.

                    It's weird but true.

                    We've all known someone in grade school that just has the knack to draw. I mean freaking draw! But when we try it's a sloppy mess. It's genetics. Their brains cycle thoughts and images in very different ways. Their brains have a level of control over their hands and fingers that some only wish they had. It just syncs.

                    Yes, one could argue that it's part nature and nurture but I believe nature has the upper hand.

                    My point is that if you're lucky enough to FIND what trait you genetically excel in (in story telling that is), you have the edge.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Degree of Difficulty

                      I'm sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with genetics. Read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.
                      Thank you for reading my opinion.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Degree of Difficulty

                        Originally posted by huge_tree View Post
                        I'm sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. It has nothing to do with genetics. Read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.
                        I know that book, thanks for the reference. Not here to debate with you, just giving my opinion. I;m definitely not a geneticist and if I'm off than okay, just giving my opinion.

                        The way the brain is wired is all about genetics when it comes to complexities, at various levels and extreme cases are as you say outliers.

                        What I'm NOT saying is that people with the right genetics are the only one's that will be successful (in the above context).

                        I'm not saying that. I'm strictly talking about complexities that is all. I totally don't agree with some geneticists about certain hypothesis on intelligence. Some are absurd.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Degree of Difficulty

                          Originally posted by Hamboogul View Post
                          My execution... who knows.

                          When it comes to your execution Hammy...




                          I'm in favor of it!


                          (that's me stealing like an artist. Credit goes to former Buccaneers Coach Jim McKay)

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                          • #14
                            Re: Degree of Difficulty

                            Originally posted by jimjimgrande View Post
                            When it comes to your execution Hammy...




                            I'm in favor of it!


                            (that's me stealing like an artist. Credit goes to former Buccaneers Coach Jim McKay)
                            Trash talking a full two weeks before our throwdown? BRING IT!!!


                            Oh, back to the original point that FSF was making. I'm a big believer of pushing yourself as much as you can. Because I don't think you should pigeon-hole/specialize in one genre while you are still trying to break in. Because once you do, the industry's more or less gonna do that for you in terms of assignment lists you end up on. So why not shoot for the moon or climb Everest with each try?
                            Last edited by Hamboogul; 04-23-2011, 06:22 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Degree of Difficulty

                              Originally posted by montevideo View Post
                              I know that book, thanks for the reference. Not here to debate with you, just giving my opinion. I;m definitely not a geneticist and if I'm off than okay, just giving my opinion.

                              The way the brain is wired is all about genetics when it comes to complexities, at various levels and extreme cases are as you say outliers.

                              What I'm NOT saying is that people with the right genetics are the only one's that will be successful (in the above context).

                              I'm not saying that. I'm strictly talking about complexities that is all. I totally don't agree with some geneticists about certain hypothesis on intelligence. Some are absurd.
                              If by know you mean you know of it, it's not enough. You should read it. I'm not saying it to sound superior or anything. This book gave me an entirely new perspective on how someone becomes anyone. With that said, I see your point and has earned my cookies.
                              Thank you for reading my opinion.

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