Should we all be writing books instead?

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  • #61
    Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

    Originally posted by Splendor View Post
    I'm just seeing this. I am a published children's writer and do both. I agree if you have a talent to write try and do both. If you write the book first you can then do the screenplay later. Best of luck to everyone.
    Love to hear more about how children's book industry and process goes... been thinking about that, well since I've had kids and had to read some terrible terrible books. When you find a book YOU LIKE man are you happy.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

      Several years ago, a producer got me to write a script for free. My reps were excited because it was based on a big optioned property with an up-and-coming director attached. It was the project that was going to launch my career.

      The producer, through his own incompetence, let the option lapse and didn't notice when it was quickly gobbled up by someone else. Stunned, I looked back and saw that I had just pissed away several months of my writing life with absolutely nothing to show for it.

      I've made some decent money in screenwriting. I'm fully repped. I can get into any room I want and when I write a script it can go wide. And yet, here I was, and I still hadn't "made it." Worse, I could suddenly see a future where, through bad luck or events out of my control, my IMDB page might forever be blank. In truth, this wasn't the first time I had been screwed over and I couldn't pretend that it would definitely be the last.

      And so, I started writing novels on the side.

      Not as some backdoor IP way to sneak through the Hollywood gates. I started writing novels because I wanted to get a story in front of an audience. I couldn't bear the thought of more of my stories vanishing into the Hollywood ether.

      It's a challenging mind-flip at first. Going from present-tense to past tense in writing is hard enough. Going from 20k words to 100k words is also hard. And then there's the POV. In screenplays, the POV is the camera. In scripts, if you want to see the bad guys loading their guns in the hallway, you cut away to that. In novels, if you're doing 1st or 3rd limited then you need to stay anchored.

      In novels, it was also tough to allow myself to just WRITE. In scripts, you're always trying to condense, condense, condense. I feel a bit of stress if I notice my page count pushing higher than the genre prefers. Now, suddenly, I had the freedom (and challenge) of filling in the scenes and building worlds.

      When my agent and managers found out I was writing novels on the side, they were completely supportive and tried to set me up with book agents - every aspiring novelist's dream!

      I declined.

      I was determined not to put my work in other people's hands and hope that they followed through on their promises. Traditional publishing can add rocket fuel to a book launch. But publishers can also suddenly give up on marketing after a few weeks and allow a book to sink to the bottom of the Amazon. There is a stigma to self-publishing (nowadays called "indie" publishing) I had to get over, but there is money there. A LOT of money if you can find it. And, more important to me at the time, there was control.

      I now have two books out. They're in the Top 100 best sellers in their genres. I make almost enough each month to pay my mortgage (in Los Angeles, no less!).

      I have to pay for my own marketing which is both annoying and strangely satisfying. Annoying because it's the kind of thing that a screenwriter never thinks about or pays for. Satisfying because, for a few cents, I get to present my story directly to the end-consumer. Again - more control.

      Reviews are also tough (and wonderful) because they're posted publicly. In screenwriting, everyone smiles to your face and tells you how great you are, but you never quite know what they really think. Public reviewers, however, will rip apart your book in front of the world, sometimes for reasons no better than, "I don't like this genre, but I thought I'd give this book a try. Turns out I don't like this genre. 1 star." But it's also insanely satisfying to receive glowing reviews. I've had people spend their entire holiday weekend completely engrossed in something I wrote. In Hollywood, reading scripts is homework. In the real world, reading books is pleasure.

      Overall, the novels are doing well, but the biggest problem for me right now is that Hollywood is keeping me too damn busy to focus on writing my next one. (Let me be honest, too - Hollywood still pays better). Production companies - the same people who said "We love your writing but aren't sure there's an audience for it" - are reaching out to my pen name to inquire about the rights to my books. I'm also getting more pitches and meetings than ever as a screenwriter. Part of this, I'm sure, is because novel writing has made me a better writer, a faster writer, and a more confident writer. I now go into meetings with a genuine attitude of "I don't NEED this gig." I have my parachute on and can jettison from the Hollywood plane any day, and I'll still be a writer. I think people sense that and it makes them want me even more.

      For me, novels have been a psychological breakthrough. But the key to that is that I went into it planning to ESCAPE from Hollywood. I had no intention of my novels helping my Hollywood career at all. And so I set out to be the best novelist (and indie publisher) that I could. I dedicated a lot of time and effort to the craft. It's an entirely new career that most people fail at.

      If you're looking at novels as a secret passage into Hollywood, you're wasting your time. Use those precious writing hours to churn out a new spec. This is just my story and I won't try to convince anyone else that it's the right path. It's a lot of work and there are no guarantees.

      Write novels if you can see yourself writing novels for the rest of your life. I can honestly say that I can see myself doing this forever... if only Hollywood would leave me the f alone.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

        Great post and I can tell you're a great prose writer just from your epic post.

        So did you go with the Amazon kind of self publishing avenue you went?

        Will you try traditional publishing ever?

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

          Originally posted by Bono View Post
          Will you try traditional publishing ever?
          I'll never say never, but I don't feel the need to right now. I've built a brand and a following. I'm not really in a rush to hand all that over to Harper-Collins along with a cut of the royalties.

          But most importantly, publishers release on THEIR schedule. I want to release on my schedule.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

            Yup... interesting post. Thanks for sharing!

            I'm curious if Hollywood approached you about film rights, or if your agent/manager has already sold your book to film rights.

            Good for you for figuring out your escape route!

            I'm working on mine now. Same, I want to literally not care about the meeting. Fear is the worst way to walk into a meeting, not that we don't know that, just stating the obvious.
            Bruh, fukkin *smooches*! Feel me? Ha!

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

              Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
              I'm curious if Hollywood approached you about film rights, or if your agent/manager has already sold your book to film rights.
              It was kinda both.

              I went into meetings my reps set up, and people would ask what else I had. I mentioned these scripts and their reactions were:

              Them: Sounds cool. Send it over.

              Me: I should mention it's based on one of my books. It's doing really well on Amazon.

              Them: THERE'S A BOOK?!? TELL ME MORE!!!


              But then, as the lawyers were hashing out the contacts, other producers started reaching out to the social media accounts tied to my pen name. These were big, name-brand companies. They had no idea I was actually a screenwriter because my novel persona is a very separate entity from my screenwriting persona.

              And so, the novels moved multiple Hollywood needles.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                congratulations, Bunker. well done.
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                  This ...

                  Originally posted by Bunker View Post
                  Several years ago, a producer got me to write a script for free. My reps were excited because it was based on a big optioned property with an up-and-coming director attached. It was the project that was going to launch my career.

                  The producer, through his own incompetence, let the option lapse and didn't notice when it was quickly gobbled up by someone else. Stunned, I looked back and saw that I had just pissed away several months of my writing life with absolutely nothing to show for it.

                  I've made some decent money in screenwriting. I'm fully repped. I can get into any room I want and when I write a script it can go wide. And yet, here I was, and I still hadn't "made it." Worse, I could suddenly see a future where, through bad luck or events out of my control, my IMDB page might forever be blank. In truth, this wasn't the first time I had been screwed over and I couldn't pretend that it would definitely be the last.

                  And so, I started writing novels on the side.

                  Not as some backdoor IP way to sneak through the Hollywood gates. I started writing novels because I wanted to get a story in front of an audience. I couldn't bear the thought of more of my stories vanishing into the Hollywood ether.

                  It's a challenging mind-flip at first. Going from present-tense to past tense in writing is hard enough. Going from 20k words to 100k words is also hard. And then there's the POV. In screenplays, the POV is the camera. In scripts, if you want to see the bad guys loading their guns in the hallway, you cut away to that. In novels, if you're doing 1st or 3rd limited then you need to stay anchored.

                  In novels, it was also tough to allow myself to just WRITE. In scripts, you're always trying to condense, condense, condense. I feel a bit of stress if I notice my page count pushing higher than the genre prefers. Now, suddenly, I had the freedom (and challenge) of filling in the scenes and building worlds.

                  When my agent and managers found out I was writing novels on the side, they were completely supportive and tried to set me up with book agents - every aspiring novelist's dream!

                  I declined.

                  I was determined not to put my work in other people's hands and hope that they followed through on their promises. Traditional publishing can add rocket fuel to a book launch. But publishers can also suddenly give up on marketing after a few weeks and allow a book to sink to the bottom of the Amazon. There is a stigma to self-publishing (nowadays called "indie" publishing) I had to get over, but there is money there. A LOT of money if you can find it. And, more important to me at the time, there was control.

                  I now have two books out. They're in the Top 100 best sellers in their genres. I make almost enough each month to pay my mortgage (in Los Angeles, no less!).

                  I have to pay for my own marketing which is both annoying and strangely satisfying. Annoying because it's the kind of thing that a screenwriter never thinks about or pays for. Satisfying because, for a few cents, I get to present my story directly to the end-consumer. Again - more control.

                  Reviews are also tough (and wonderful) because they're posted publicly. In screenwriting, everyone smiles to your face and tells you how great you are, but you never quite know what they really think. Public reviewers, however, will rip apart your book in front of the world, sometimes for reasons no better than, "I don't like this genre, but I thought I'd give this book a try. Turns out I don't like this genre. 1 star." But it's also insanely satisfying to receive glowing reviews. I've had people spend their entire holiday weekend completely engrossed in something I wrote. In Hollywood, reading scripts is homework. In the real world, reading books is pleasure.

                  Overall, the novels are doing well, but the biggest problem for me right now is that Hollywood is keeping me too damn busy to focus on writing my next one. (Let me be honest, too - Hollywood still pays better). Production companies - the same people who said "We love your writing but aren't sure there's an audience for it" - are reaching out to my pen name to inquire about the rights to my books. I'm also getting more pitches and meetings than ever as a screenwriter. Part of this, I'm sure, is because novel writing has made me a better writer, a faster writer, and a more confident writer. I now go into meetings with a genuine attitude of "I don't NEED this gig." I have my parachute on and can jettison from the Hollywood plane any day, and I'll still be a writer. I think people sense that and it makes them want me even more.

                  For me, novels have been a psychological breakthrough. But the key to that is that I went into it planning to ESCAPE from Hollywood. I had no intention of my novels helping my Hollywood career at all. And so I set out to be the best novelist (and indie publisher) that I could. I dedicated a lot of time and effort to the craft. It's an entirely new career that most people fail at.

                  If you're looking at novels as a secret passage into Hollywood, you're wasting your time. Use those precious writing hours to churn out a new spec. This is just my story and I won't try to convince anyone else that it's the right path. It's a lot of work and there are no guarantees.

                  Write novels if you can see yourself writing novels for the rest of your life. I can honestly say that I can see myself doing this forever... if only Hollywood would leave me the f alone.
                  ... is really helpful to me. Can you PM me a link to your books?

                  I've been in writing limbo for several years. I love the craft of screenwriting but the the realities of breaking in with the close-but-no-cigar experiences, my own and readings those of others, makes it seem an impossible feat -- at least for me. So, a few years back I went back to prose fiction, my first love. Got fairly deep into a novel/novella then stalled, distracted by life (and the 2016 election).

                  So, today, a slow work day, and after reading your post, I opened up the file to read it and the first thing that was blatantly clear was that my writing was heavily influenced by the habit of writing "tersely" for scripts, including the pace. I wrote notes-to-self all over the thing: flesh this out.

                  You've inspired me to go back to it. Another thing -- the two scripts I loved the most are stories far better suited for prose fiction so I have others to work on. Thanks again.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                    Get to it. Also I think that we sure have to have more details than we would on a script, but we also don't have to describe the color of everyone's shoes. Somewhere in between is where I would land for my own novel writing... good luck.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                      Congratulations to all the published novelists in here. I believe Bunker and Hscope mentioned something about it being satisfying to see your work in the hands of real readers. The thought of those words getting lost in Hollywood can be maddening. I think most writers just want to share their work with the world, in some sense. I, too, have been working on a novel for the better part of the last year. If any novelists want to swap pages, pm me.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                        Originally posted by Bono View Post
                        I've been doing this screenwriting thing for maybe 20 years? Holy sh%t imagine all the things I could have done in that time. Obviously it's not a full 9 to 5, 20 years type of job and I had real jobs and kids during it and a life -- but still this is my career.

                        I mean adults now and they tell me about their jobs, their lives, their careers, their raises, vacation time and real life job stuff. And I feel lost as I sort of love and hate the office job. Being a writer for a person that loves to talk to people is a weird profession to choose sometimes. But of course I do like to be alone.

                        What was my point of this thread?

                        Oh yeah, all that time, effort and writing that no one will see. Made a little money off of it, but basically it's just a failed hobby at this point. Even if I don't laugh at calling myself a screenwriter -- wouldn't the time be better spent maybe on trying to take some of my ideas and write YA Novels? Or Kids books? I know all writing is hard, but there's just so many more books published and the writing is the thing -- you think at least if I put 20 years into writing YA Novels and had the same talent -- i'd have more success by now.

                        I've seen screenwriters like chad kultgen who went to USC film school, but he wrote novels as his way to break into the industry. and that seemed smart to me years ago.

                        Just asking as I think about how much time and effort it takes. And it's so disappointing that unlike others whose time and effort is rewarding with money or something actually being published. Or a piece of art on a wall. Or a piece of music I can hear at a local club played by them...

                        Screenwriting is so specific. And so narrow. It's depressing. I love film. I love TV. But I always would love to make money and more importantly have people actually read and hear my words.

                        What's the point of wasting 40 years doing this and not making it? Maybe I should spend the next 20 years focused on something else...
                        Oh, Bono, Bono, Bono. This really struck a nerve as I've slogging away for over 16 years now. And it's getting harder, as a great script isn't enough. Now you have a "package- put together. What the hell fo we need producer for? I've been writing on Medium.com for almost a year now. I've amassed 1.2k followers and it keeps me writing. I've been thinking of going the book route for a while, now. Whatever you do, I wish you the best.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                          Originally posted by lostfootage View Post
                          I had the book epiphany a few years ago, and am now sitting on two novels that are in a connected world. I set out to write a thriller, realized I loved the main character's best friend, decided to write a short story about him and that turned into a novel. Then I finished the thriller. They are commercial, not literary. The thriller involves a dead body and a hunt for a missing brother, who is either the killer or the second victim. Blah blah blah.

                          Now I'm at the marketing stage and I find myself hesitating with sending out queries to lit agents, etc. I think part of me worries I'm just going to rack up another 50 rejections and will have wasted a few years. I don't know. One thing I did do is hire a developmental editor and did multiple drafts. These are not first drafts. The tires have been kicked.

                          So I will report back if I have success going this route. I should be able to tell if one or both have any legs over the next two months. Who knows!
                          Good luck! You can do it!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                            Originally posted by GucciGhostXXX View Post
                            Thanks for the nice words, gang.

                            I haven't just considered it, I DID it, kinda, with my ex. But, I fukked up. My name wasn't on these deals and therefore not in the trades, I let her take 100% credit even tho I was actually the dude running numbers and fighting the studios. I got HALF the money on those deals, but zero credit. I suppose I could come out as "THE ACTUAL DUDE WHO SOLD GONE GIRL" and I guess I kinda already have (on here), but it might hurt me in the long game. It may appear like I'm trying to take ALL the credit, not really my point, my point is simple "In truth, it was her client, but I'm the dude who ACTUALLY made that deal. It went down word for word what I said. 'This is what we say, this is what we do!'" That's the God's honest truth.

                            If I hung my own shingle, I'd have to figure out how to leverage that truth. Maybe it's possible, IDK. But, definitely, I'd give good notes and be 100% for the writer. I've already done that on a scary deal "LET'S PUSH ALL THE CHIPS IN... WE'RE ALL IN. WE'RE GOING FOR IT. TRUST ME. IT'LL WORK!" in favor of the WRITER (remember her?) if she gets the best deal WE get the best deal. I don't see any other way to operate.

                            But I promise you this: My ex will NEVER come on this website to dispute my claim that I sold GG if this gets back to her. Because she knows it was me, and she'll look stupid if she tries to.

                            Anyone wanna give me a job as a manager? I'll kick ass, promise! LOL

                            I don't really want to leave the industry................ but, I need to get paid.
                            I do! In a heartbeat!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Should we all be writing books instead?

                              Originally posted by catcon View Post
                              Is a screenplay a finished product? Of course. If it weren't, the copyright office wouldn't let me register it, and Amazon and other places wouldn't let me publish mine as Kindle eBooks.

                              And don't forget that the goal of pretty well every novelist is to see his/her work eventually as a film:

                              "Whoops! Where's the screenplay!?"

                              So whose product is more complete than the other?

                              Well, I won't get into that argument. Both are. From the foregoing, we might think a film is the most complete, but you'd get plenty of debate there, too.

                              As for film awards, most notably the Oscars, I barely care who wins the best Adapted Screenplay, but one of my favorites is the one for Best Original Screenplay. That's spec screenplay, to you and me.
                              Catcon, do you publish the ebooks in actual script format, or do you rewrite as sort of mini-books? How interesting.

                              Comment

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