Next steps on The Black List?

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  • Next steps on The Black List?

    So it's been a month since I uploaded my first script to the blacklist.

    After a rocky start with my first review, my next 2 seemed on point. I got on some lists which lead to some views and downloads. While I've been contacted because of some of these downloads, I'm still waiting to see if anything pans out.

    From the reviews, it seems my script is close to being ready. I agree and think 1 or 2 passes can make it great. There are some pretty easily addressable issues I can fix.

    So my question is, do I leave my script up while I do these changes or take it down? I feel ok with that draft being out there but am I hurting myself because it's not the best it can be?

    If I take it down, when I reupload my new draft, do I pay for new reviews?

    Not sure exactly what the optimum way to proceed is.

  • #2
    Re: Next steps on The Black List?

    Originally posted by slupo View Post
    So it's been a month since I uploaded my first script to the blacklist.

    After a rocky start with my first review, my next 2 seemed on point. I got on some lists which lead to some views and downloads. While I've been contacted because of some of these downloads, I'm still waiting to see if anything pans out.

    From the reviews, it seems my script is close to being ready. I agree and think 1 or 2 passes can make it great. There are some pretty easily addressable issues I can fix.

    So my question is, do I leave my script up while I do these changes or take it down? I feel ok with that draft being out there but am I hurting myself because it's not the best it can be?

    If I take it down, when I reupload my new draft, do I pay for new reviews?

    Not sure exactly what the optimum way to proceed is.
    It really depends on you.

    A few questions, if I may? Did your overall score rate 8 or above with two reviews? Did you receive any 9s? Did you receive an overall 7 with some 8s? Is the first score, that you seems to imply was low, calculating into your average? Or was it dismissed altogether?

    I would say, and it's just an opinion, if you received an overall 7 on both reviews and you feel the rewrite is essential, then I would take it down, rewrite it, upload the new version, then pay for the two reads.

    And hopefully they'll be higher.

    Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be higher, so you have to be prepared for that. Because even if you received one that was lower than the other two, the reviews are subjective and it's possible that a similar thing could happen.

    I don't actually recall if anyone has offered their experience when they have completed a rewrite and what the new scores were on the new draft compared to the old. It would be interesting to get that insight as I have a script I'll begin to rewrite in the next two weeks or so, and I'll upload then.

    While the revised draft is waiting for reviews, I would start querying before you receive any results back, because TBL is one opportunity. You can still query with "Received 8s on an early draft." I think it's safe to assume that most would believe that the new draft should be ready-- especially you, right?

    Even when you delist it, it should still show up in the index, I'm pretty sure that's right. The script just won't be downloadable. There are plenty of screenplays that are indexed but you can't download them because they are not currently hosted.

    Can't really tell you what's right for you. But good luck with it, sounds like you're close.
    Best,
    FA4
    "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Next steps on The Black List?

      Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
      It really depends on you.

      A few questions, if I may? Did your overall score rate 8 or above with two reviews? Did you receive any 9s? Did you receive an overall 7 with some 8s? Is the first score, that you seems to imply was low, calculating into your average? Or was it dismissed altogether?

      I would say, and it's just an opinion, if you received an overall 7 on both reviews and you feel the rewrite is essential, then I would take it down, rewrite it, upload the new version, then pay for the two reads.

      And hopefully they'll be higher.

      Of course, there's no guarantee that they will be higher, so you have to be prepared for that. Because even if you received one that was lower than the other two, the reviews are subjective and it's possible that a similar thing could happen.

      I don't actually recall if anyone has offered their experience when they have completed a rewrite and what the new scores were on the new draft compared to the old. It would be interesting to get that insight as I have a script I'll begin to rewrite in the next two weeks or so, and I'll upload then.

      While the revised draft is waiting for reviews, I would start querying before you receive any results back, because TBL is one opportunity. You can still query with "Received 8s on an early draft." I think it's safe to assume that most would believe that the new draft should be ready-- especially you, right?

      Even when you delist it, it should still show up in the index, I'm pretty sure that's right. The script just won't be downloadable. There are plenty of screenplays that are indexed but you can't download them because they are not currently hosted.

      Can't really tell you what's right for you. But good luck with it, sounds like you're close.
      Best,
      FA4
      I got a 6 and 7 and the first review was thrown out.

      I think I am leaning towards taking it down and then putting up my new script in a week or two and paying for two new reviews.

      Thanks for the insight. It's been helpful!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Next steps on The Black List?

        I got a 6 and a 7, then two 5's that were taken down cause the readers gave a false logline. Actually, 4 out of my 7 reviews were retracted, so I'm hesitant to keep going.
        I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Next steps on The Black List?

          Originally posted by FoxHound View Post
          I got a 6 and a 7, then two 5's that were taken down cause the readers gave a false logline. Actually, 4 out of my 7 reviews were retracted, so I'm hesitant to keep going.
          If four out of seven professional readers can't make sense of your script, it might not be them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Next steps on The Black List?

            This may be overstating things but, if you don't have at least one 8, delete it and start over. I suspect pros won't bother reading anything with average scores less than that.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Next steps on The Black List?

              Originally posted by BillWilliams12345 View Post
              If four out of seven professional readers can't make sense of your script, it might not be them.
              That's a low blow and a stupid comment.

              This stuff happens all the time -- professional readers not really reading and the review is haywire. Details wrong. Huge plot points wrong. Stuff skimmed and not actually read. Mumbo jumbo of "weaknesses" so vague that they can apply to anyone's script.

              On the blacklist it's provable -- when it happens for prod co and studio reads, you just get a polite pass instead of pages of comments that prove the reader wasn't adequate.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                Originally posted by figment View Post
                That's a low blow and a stupid comment.

                This stuff happens all the time -- professional readers not really reading and the review is haywire. Details wrong. Huge plot points wrong. Stuff skimmed and not actually read. Mumbo jumbo of "weaknesses" so vague that they can apply to anyone's script.

                On the blacklist it's provable -- when it happens for prod co and studio reads, you just get a polite pass instead of pages of comments that prove the reader wasn't adequate.
                I have to agree with Figment on this, because if TBL is giving you another review at no charge or at a discounted rate, they are agreeing with you to some degree.

                And it's not necessarily that the readers couldn't make sense, sometimes it's that they actually state things that are untruths. Sometimes they get character's names wrong and if you're going to post a review on your spec they should at least get the main character's name right.

                And yes, it's subjective. We can all make these same mistakes.

                I don't believe there's any intentional harm or fowl, and I commend TBL on their customer service-- it's top notch.

                One thing I would caution the OP and others about the reviews is that when they write the review about the strengths and weaknesses, understand that they are going to say good things about your spec's strengths.

                Don't let it go to your head, because by nature it's going to be good stuff. That's what they're supposed to do, but as the originator, it's your job to be honest with yourself, too.

                If they say really great things about your spec and give you 7s, there are problems that you need to address and not all of them may be found in the review. You still have work to do, imo. That's where I'm at, too.

                You know in your gut if you need to work harder to get your spec up to par. Don't ignore it, don't get trapped in 'busy work,' like wordsmithing and such. The problems will be deeper than that. Hunker down and turn out one hell of a rewrite.

                Good luck all,
                FA4
                Last edited by finalact4; 09-06-2014, 09:30 AM. Reason: grammar
                "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                  It's easier to give someone a refund than to fight them.

                  If more than half of professional readers can't understand your script, look inwards.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                    To get back to the OP's question regarding next steps:

                    I would just leave the script up until you have a draft that is sufficiently improved, then delist it just before the monthly bill comes around and re-upload it the next day. The exposure is not going to "poison the well- because you're not getting enough exposure to do damage to yourself.

                    As for next steps in general, consider using whatever momentum you've gained on The Black List in other venues. One thing I did was I would get a script on a top list a couple of times (which is very easy to do - two sixes is enough), then go to Virtual Pitch Fest and say, "Hey, this has been on a mailing list and/or was featured.- It's a quick, cheap way to get some kind of badge for your script without waiting for a competition to roll around.

                    Also, it helps with querying if you can go, "Here is a logline and an attached review.- It shows the reader you are open to criticism and have had your project vetted (just omit the scores if they're low - nobody will care that they're missing).

                    Another thing you can do is use the frequent nature of getting listed or getting on a mailing list as an excuse to follow up with someone. Rather than go, "Hey, it's been a month. What did you think of my script?- You can just say, "Hey! I don't know if you've gotten to my project yet, but I wanted to let you know that it was just featured on so-and-so!-

                    Producers, and by extension readers (who are just larval producers), are always hungry for buzz. That's one thing The Black List can reliably put out: buzz.

                    As for scores, they're important but not the end-all-be-all. I had one script that was very well reviewed and never generated much attention. I had another that received a good review, then a bad review, then a good one, and so on. The latter script was written in a week and never received as strong a score as the first script. However, it was constantly getting downloaded. I eventually took it down because I wanted to put something more substantive on there.

                    Why did the latter script generate more interest? Well, it had a better logline. It was a more attractive genre. And it had a few keywords that probably attracted niche producers. It also frequently received 8s on component scores (there is a second mailing list for those), so there is that. However, the downloads-per-day rate was largely independent of the timing of the reviews.

                    Finally, if you look at some of the featured scripts, it seems like you only really need one 8 to generate sufficient buzz. This is probably why they're so willing to give out additional reviews, because your last review is the most important and an 8 is just that good. If you're consistently getting 7s, there's probably a reader in their pool who will eventually give you a high enough score. Just read some of the featured reviews and you'll get a sense for how different the readers can be.
                    ****

                    I am a critic first and a writer second.

                    I have a background in development and currently provide low-cost coverage.

                    More info here: www.FourStarNotes.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                      Originally posted by BillWilliams12345 View Post
                      It's easier to give someone a refund than to fight them.

                      If more than half of professional readers can't understand your script, look inwards.
                      That's not why he got the refund.

                      The issue is not negative coverage, is poor coverage when either the readers state things that are factually incorrect, or when the readers get extremely sloppy and vague. Out of my Black List coverage, 3 out of 4 reviews were great in terms of breaking down my scripts and assessing their strong points and weaknesses. One was extremely vague, factually incorrect on somethings, and the reader was carried away with personal bias. The reader didn't seem to like that some of the characters did adultery, had addiction issues, and certain other behaviors that seemed to piss the reader off on a personal level. BlackList refunded me for that one and gave me a free review.

                      With that said, BlackList customer service is great and so far the majority of readers I've dealt with have been wonderful.
                      Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

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                      • #12
                        Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                        They charge you 50 and give the readers 25. So if they give people who are unhappy a free read, it doesn't cost them anything. And then you keep paying hosting fees and are a happy customer.

                        It's good business. It's pretty straightforward.

                        My opinion is that if your script doesn't keep people interested enough to keep it straight, that's a problem.

                        Or you can blame everyone else.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                          Originally posted by BillWilliams12345 View Post
                          They charge you 50 and give the readers 25. So if they give people who are unhappy a free read, it doesn't cost them anything. And then you keep paying hosting fees and are a happy customer.

                          It's good business. It's pretty straightforward.

                          My opinion is that if your script doesn't keep people interested enough to keep it straight, that's a problem.

                          Or you can blame everyone else.
                          My script kept the original reader very interested, and he/she gave very good feedback. It was the second reader that gave very vague feedback and basically did not like the script because of the readers moral issues, something that I had not received from my reviews of my other BlackList script. On all of my other reviews I addressed the reader's concerns and criticisms. I actually like knowing the weak points of my work and what I can do to fix them.

                          I was actually shocked. But clearly just as every script is not good, not every reader is good either. The same hold's true of any other job, obviously not everyone is equally good at everything.

                          In terms of giving writers a free read just because they complained, I seriously doubt that. Obviously writers would have to feel as though they are getting something from BlackList or else they will not pay the hosting fee. I already got good feedback from my scripts, so for now I don't mind paying the hosting fee.

                          At the same time people post on BlackList and Inktip because some of the scripts posted there have become movies. If your script becomes good enough to score well on BlackList, you can go far. To that end it is to the writers advantage to seriously consider the readers suggestions for improvement and take them or otherwise address them. I agree that it's not really in the writer's advantage to ignore the readers if they point out serious flaws in your writing. The writer needs to deal with those problems.
                          Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

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                          • #14
                            Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                            A couple of takeaways I have:

                            This example echoes several other testimonies that indicate to me that blacklist reviewers are no more skilled at reviewing scripts than users of peer review sites. However no decisions should ever be made because scores are disparate - they always will be. A portion of the readers will always be well outside the target audience. It's an inherent risk. I still respect the site because of its apparent clout and I am still considering posting there. But until then I will exhaust the feedback of the top ten or fifteen people on Talentville. Perhaps the reviewers should be rated as on that site.

                            On peer review sites, scores as high as 8 are rare and averages that high disappear after about 10 reviews. On Talentville the top scoring script right now has an 81.32 or something like that. I have reviewed over 100 scripts on that site and given two eights on a decent bell curve that goes down to two. It's not like rotten tomatoes, nobody ever agrees. There are no 98 percents. If you get two positive reviews out of three, it's a bonanza. I get that DDP tends to have more experienced writers, but the inference here of 8 being common, the expectation of getting an 8 and seeing any single sub-8 as a disaster is really misguided IMO, both on the part of the writer and on the part of the producer who looks at the site - one very high score should be much more of an indicator.

                            Then again, blacklist is expensive so maybe this is a money thing. And apparently producers cannot be bothered to do more than check the top averages chart by this logic. Personally, I don't find the scripts on the actual black list to be that great. They are almost always unspectacular cheap straight dramas or comedies. And they are often based on a small number of reviews because of the high cost, making the results less significant mathematically. And if the producers are really this lazy, it makes me think less of them.

                            As for if your script is "too smart" for reviewers and the reviewers don't get it. You probably know that complex, ambitious scripts are filled with landmines and almost always fail legitimately, so I will assume you've accounted for that.

                            But I feel I can help on this. I write intellectually dense historical and sci-fi scripts with multiple layers and allegories and minutia that carries heavy plot points and symbolism and junk. (A reviewer would mark my writing score down and say I should shrink that to with junk because the rest is a redundancy.) The issue is they are not following the story you want them to, because you are taking for granted that they know something they do not. Readers rarely put the effort into checking out things they don't know in your script - you might, I do, others don't. It pisses me off because in production you would create your own demand and inform the audience of these things in the marketing process, and the final product would bring them out in visuals and acting, and that is something it appears producers and readers are blind to. In production meetings and in marketing, you get to explain yourself. At the script stage, they'll never read into your story like you do.

                            Anyway, you need to do something in act one to force the reader to follow the track you want them to for maximizing the script's potential (for example, if the B-arc is the dominant one, you need to do something to say to the reader, hey, B-arc is way more important than A-arc in this script). Easier said than done obviously.

                            Example on a sequence scale: In a script I wrote, a peasant girl bought lemons, then her mother died after she took them home. She carried the lemons around for the rest of the story. In addition to this she was depressed, inhibited, cold, unemotional, etc. as that is my style, especially for young female leads. The reviewer complained that all the character cared about was the lemons, and she didn't care that her mother died.

                            Key plot point: At the time in history, lemons carried religious significance and were thought to have healing properties. Totally changes the meaning. But how could the reader ever know that? They would assume it's incidental. So I had to add dialogue to the first scene of the movie that indicated the girl thought the lemons would cure her mother.

                            That example is one that's very much my fault because no one should ever know about the history of lemons. But I'll give another that illustrates something different. Later in the script, she leaves her house and the authorities come in and see her icon of Mary. I got criticized for this because the reader misread that as an OTN symbol of something in and of itself, that the girl was raped because it is "the virgin." The reviewer then went on for 4 paragraphs about how I needed to correct this thread of the past rape that wasn't even in the script.

                            But in history, as some here will know because it is more common knowledge, icons were very important in the household. It would have been a really important item for someone to pack if they were leaving. The important thing was that it was left behind. It meant the character lost her religion.

                            In the second example, that is something the author would in all likelihood expect the reader to know and interpret like he or she wants, but they won't. That is the quandary you are likely in - when you show the icon, how do you make the reader see that the important thing is the context, not the image itself? I don't have an answer, but you need to be aware of it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Next steps on The Black List?

                              Originally posted by mrdennissir View Post
                              Then again, blacklist is expensive so maybe this is a money thing. And apparently producers cannot be bothered to do more than check the top averages chart by this logic. Personally, I don't find the scripts on the actual black list to be that great. They are almost always unspectacular cheap straight dramas or comedies. And they are often based on a small number of reviews because of the high cost, making the results less significant mathematically. And if the producers are really this lazy, it makes me think less of them.

                              As for if your script is "too smart" for reviewers and the reviewers don't get it. You probably know that complex, ambitious scripts are filled with landmines and almost always fail legitimately, so I will assume you've accounted for that.

                              But I feel I can help on this. I write intellectually dense historical and sci-fi scripts with multiple layers and allegories and minutia that carries heavy plot points and symbolism and junk. (A reviewer would mark my writing score down and say I should shrink that to with junk because the rest is a redundancy.) The issue is they are not following the story you want them to, because you are taking for granted that they know something they do not. Readers rarely put the effort into checking out things they don't know in your script - you might, I do, others don't. It pisses me off because in production you would create your own demand and inform the audience of these things in the marketing process, and the final product would bring them out in visuals and acting, and that is something it appears producers and readers are blind to. In production meetings and in marketing, you get to explain yourself. At the script stage, they'll never read into your story like you do.
                              The movies that win Academy Awards are generally dramas, and winning critical acclaim does a lot for the careers of writers, directors, actors, etc. A number of films on the BlackList have gone on to win Academy Awards.

                              I know it's easy for writers to want to villify the reader, but one thing about BlackList is it lets you get honest feedback from readers. Had you just submitted to a production company you would have gotten a polite pass and would have no idea why your script is rejected. If readers overall are down on your script, you need to READ what the READER is saying and confront that problem within your script.

                              And another problem some writers may face is it's going to be hard for a writer to break in with fantasy or sci. It's much easier for a new writer to break in by writing dramas. Not just at the BlackList ,but at Sundance, Tribeca, and the other major competitions (winning these types of competitions or participating in these labs has launched many careers).
                              Check out my videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/NyFilmmaker32/videos

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