Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

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  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

    Originally posted by topshelf View Post
    I'm glad you posted this as I had almost the EXACT same experience. I also got a 3. I wasn't expecting a 10 by any stretch, but a 3?

    Here is my big issue with my experience which is similar to yours.

    I've had the script I submitted reviewed by ScriptGal and the Screenplay Mechanic. Their comments (strength/weaknesses) were very close to one another across the board which in turn produced a tremendous amount of value in evaluating where I am in this process. In fact, the short SlamDance feedback I got was also similar to their strengths.

    What I got from this service was something completely the opposite. For example, where my characters were rated "excellent" by both SG/SM I got a 2/10 by the BL reader -- which was the lowest rated part of my script by BL. To say I was left scratching my head after that review would be an understatement.

    If I hadn't received consistant notes from these two respected individuals prior, I would be seriously questioning everything about this script and where I need to focus on improving as a writer.

    Thankfully, due to those prior notes, I pulled my script and am left questioning who the Black List has reading/rating these screenplays.
    This is a great, and very scary, example, precisely because you already had the respected SG/SM feedback to compare it to, and they had agreed with one another, on that specific part, before this reader's evaluation. I can just imagine how frustrating and confusing that must be, especially after dropping $50. Now that's some food for thought.
    "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

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    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

      I had another post here for awhile, but then I remembered I didn't want to make this a debate about what score I got or should have gotten. I'll just say my experience matches those of other posters who received abysmal scores that don't seem to square at all with prior feedback from contest rankings, paid notes, and reads by other writers & industry pros.
      Last edited by Patrick Sweeney; 10-24-2012, 02:52 PM.
      Patrick Sweeney

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      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

        I see some mildly contradictory stuff in my rating and review as well, especially a 5/10 for dialogue alongside strengths that include "world building and rules of the world" and "a large array of characters that are dry and funny" - both of which in this script rely heavily on dialogue to achieve. They did cite that my second act "consists mainly of conversation," so maybe my dialogue ding has more to do with quantity versus quality? (As an aside, my coverage elsewhere on this script has nearly always returned compliments on my ear for dialogue.)

        Originally posted by Crashlander View Post
        What is with the misspelling of 'Strengths' in all these reviews? Can anyone explain?
        I'm thinking that misspelling is just something in their code that needs to be corrected. Either that, or one person happened to write all of our reviews!

        Troy

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        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

          Then I rate the Black List 2/10 for spelling. They now owe me $50.

          If they want another review when they fix it, that's another $50, I'm afraid.

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          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

            Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
            Leonard must have learned something (seen dollar signs) from his buddy Scott Myers (GoIntoTheStory -- the "official blog" of The Black List), who has also begun cashing in on wanna-be writers with his very expensive "Master" classes -- this from the writer of "K-9" and a guy who hasn't had a movie made from his work in 25 years. Pretty sad, especially when we consider how gullible many aspiring writers are when it comes to coughing up money.
            This is an incredible distortion of the truth and a really baseless attack on Scott, who happens to be one of the good guys out there.

            If you really think Scott's a scammer, then you have no idea what you're talking about.

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            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

              Originally posted by cshel View Post
              This is a great, and very scary, example, precisely because you already had the respected SG/SM feedback to compare it to, and they had agreed with one another, on that specific part, before this reader's evaluation. I can just imagine how frustrating and confusing that must be, especially after dropping $50. Now that's some food for thought.
              Is it at all possible that the bar is simply set higher by the Black List readers? Could the earlier reviews have been a case of "Big Fish, Small Pond." Obviously any review is going to be subjective, and beyond that, I've seen a number of cases where top placing scripts in some contests would be solid PASS if judged alongside official submissions.

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              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                Originally posted by Bitter Script Reader View Post
                Is it at all possible that the bar is simply set higher by the Black List readers? Could the earlier reviews have been a case of "Big Fish, Small Pond." Obviously any review is going to be subjective, and beyond that, I've seen a number of cases where top placing scripts in some contests would be solid PASS if judged alongside official submissions.
                My script was a Page Awards finalist. The official Black List evaluation gave it scores of 2/10 in most categories, and a 3/10 overall. What do you have to do to get a 5/10, win the Nicholl?

                I don't think being a Page finalist means my script is a 10/10. Believe me, I'm well aware that contests get so many truly awful submissions that you can get pretty far just being reasonably competent. And tastes & opinions differ. But I'm not quibbling over the difference between a 5 and a 7 here, either. This script was rated as being among the worst the evaluator has ever read in their career. I'm not sure how to account for that.

                But if this is intentional, then it's important for writers to understand that unless you've written something equal to an Academy Award winner, you are going to be looking at ones and twos for your ratings.
                Patrick Sweeney

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                • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                  I've been reading the previous comments with an absolute sense of amazement...wondering what is going on with these ratings. But even these comments didn't prepare me for the review of my script that I got late last night. I posted a thriller on the Black List because I consider it one of my best scripts.

                  I won't post comments. Just scores.

                  Premise 2
                  Plot 1
                  Characters 2
                  Dialogue 1
                  Overall 1

                  Needless to say I was stunned and, honestly, very pissed off. I know this script is better than that. I can handle 7's or 6's or even 5's. But a 1's and 2's? Did I write it with Crayon?

                  Before you ask....yes the script was vetted by both "Scott the Reader" and our "Screenplay Mechanic". The Mechanic gave it a consider and placed it on his Lugnut List of the best 10 scripts he read that year. This script also was a semi-finalist at PAGE, and was also previously optioned by a very well-respected producer and has been through rounds of development with a director attached. Me...I already won Austin...so I consider myself a fairly decent writer. But a 1? Really? Anyway....I'm yanking it and I won't use that service again. With people like that doing the reading, what a waste of money.

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                  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                    Originally posted by Bitter Script Reader View Post
                    This is an incredible distortion of the truth and a really baseless attack on Scott, who happens to be one of the good guys out there.

                    If you really think Scott's a scammer, then you have no idea what you're talking about.
                    What he said.

                    Just give a cursory glance at all the stuff Go Into the Story provides for FREE. It's an ongoing screenwriting class.

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                    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                      I have to give the BL credit for this: it sure doesn't seem like they're too worried about people paying the 25 bucks a month to keep the scripts up.

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                      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                        Originally posted by RGF View Post
                        I won't post comments. Just scores.

                        Premise 2
                        Plot 1
                        Characters 2
                        Dialogue 1
                        Overall 1
                        Well now you HAVE TO post the comments. I wanna hear what the reader said to justify this.
                        I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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                        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                          Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                          I have to give the BL credit for this: it sure doesn't seem like they're too worried about people paying the 25 bucks a month to keep the scripts up.
                          Jeff, you vetted both Andrew and Amanda with an uncirculated spec under a false name. Any chance you would consider doing that again here? I think it would be a great way to test the system.
                          "Write every day. Don't quit. The rest is all bullshit." - Brian Koppelman

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                          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                            Originally posted by mge457 View Post
                            Jeff, you vetted both Andrew and Amanda with an uncirculated spec under a false name. Any chance you would consider doing that again here? I think it would be a great way to test the system.
                            Not a bad idea.

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                            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                              Originally posted by RGF View Post
                              I won't post comments. Just scores.

                              Premise 2
                              Plot 1
                              Characters 2
                              Dialogue 1
                              Overall 1
                              I'm thinking one thing that could help - at least when it comes to us writers understanding the ratings - is a brief explanation/justification for each category. I'm not talking multi-page coverage here, but rather 1-2 sentences that sum up the reader's rationale behind each number. Personally, I'd rather they spend their time on that versus the strength and weakness summaries.

                              Yes, I'm told I did a good job building the world and that it's an original and interesting take, but I still only scored a 7/10 for premise. Not that I'm complaining, mind you, but I'd just like to be offered a hint as to why it wasn't an 8 or higher. Luck of the draw, or something more?

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                              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                                Originally posted by Bitter Script Reader View Post
                                Is it at all possible that the bar is simply set higher by the Black List readers? Could the earlier reviews have been a case of "Big Fish, Small Pond." Obviously any review is going to be subjective, and beyond that, I've seen a number of cases where top placing scripts in some contests would be solid PASS if judged alongside official submissions.
                                [This post is in the spirit of helping to improve BL's services as I like what it's aspiring to do.]

                                It's disconcerting to hear RGF's case that he's getting 1's and 2's. If we can agree that writers reach a certain level as in any profession and at that point, their scripts are not only fulfilling the check boxes for the reader (hate to put it that way I know) and would score at the very least 3s. By BL and a writer's standard, a 1 and 2 rating is for a complete neophyte writer. And if you'll agree that RGF is at least a semi-experienced writer winning Austin, and the same BL-submitted script was given high marks by two readers on this very board, and by a producer - then he can at least manage a 3 or 4 with that script, not a 1 and 2, and the degree of disagreement in this scenario is more likely indicative that the BL reader got it wrong.

                                It is possible it's a big fish small pond scenario, but as counterpoint, there are scripts that have fared worse elsewhere but that are rating higher on BL. This speaks to the subjective nature of those avenues but also of BL, and if I may presume, what disappoints the writers in this thread is the dissonant degree of its readers criticisms with legitimate third parties is not being acknowledged - if a higher standard applies to scripts liked by legitimate third parties, then that higher standard also applies to scripts disliked by third parties - rather blame of the writer's script's quality is issued.

                                Also, what's worth noting is that its reader pool, judging by the call for readers for BL with contest experience, overlaps with readers for contests, so to dismiss those readers is disingenuous.

                                BL holds the promise of a fair/objective standard insofar as screenplay analysis can be, but anecdotes from this thread show its readers to be human and can be critically off. Keeping in mind fluctuations in ratings are understandable but to have that wide of a gap isn't. Using the defense of "high standards," instead of admitting that yes, its readers can get it wrong, and some of its readers are not as good as others (just like writers, right?) can come off as patronizing and a thin shell against legitimate criticism by good and proven (that is, not 1 or 2 level) writers as to the quality of their readers, and instead BL should seek to improve their reader pool.
                                Last edited by lordmanji; 10-24-2012, 08:44 PM.

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