Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

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  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

    Originally posted by Mossbraker View Post
    American Idol is a reality TV show. It's #1 job is to get ratings, not talent. The "artists" career ends when the season's over.
    Also take into account what Geoff said about making $.

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who raised his eyebrows when Chris Daughtry got voted off before Elliot Yamin, Katherine McPhee, and Taylor Hicks. I'm also sure I'm not the only person who immediately rectified it with the assumption that somebody with $ just signed him to a record deal. The whole "voted off" was merely allowing the system to save face and make Idol appear to be 100% genuine.

    Of course I may be wrong. It is just an assumption.

    Comment


    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

      In the interest of fairness to Franklin I'd like toacknowledge that he sent me a PM saying he was interested in specifics about myexperience with TBL, which I gave, and about which he very promptly repliedback.

      Although I still don't quite understand how they get an "averagescore- out of the categories rated, that is a very minor issue. It also causedme to put ego aside and be as objective and honest as possible about my 'score.' I now find I must applaud what Franklinis trying to do with TBL.
      The truth is Franklin's readers are far more objective froman industry point of view than the contest awards and notes I received, as wellas the professional coverage ratings given (with the exception of ScreenplayMechanic). When forced to think this through, I realized that TBL readers (andFranklin) have absolutely NOTHING to gain by giving out 2s and 3s to writersunless they honestly believed that.
      They could easily give out 4s, 5s even 6s since those scoresaren't going to generate reads from their industry pros in the database. BUTTHEY DO NOT DO THAT even though they could. Which is what, in effect, mostcontests and coverage services do - and we have to be honest here about this.Plus, in the case of contests (with the exception of Trackingb and Nicholl), weare being judge against other amateurs and the pool of basically amateurscripts submitted.
      As a result, far too many unrealistic expectations have beencreated about work that is, in all likelihood, not up to industry standards,and this is proven by the incredibly few contest winners and finalists that arenever heard from again. Same for 'considers'given by coverage services.
      The exception here, as noted above, is my experience with ScreenplayMechanic. Because he has given some of my scripts 'hard' passes, notsugar-coated in any way, (in effect 2s, 3s) and also, on rare occasion, 'considers,'which has made me trust his good ratings far more.
      But that aside, I've come to see that Franklin has, in a way- a good way actually - exposed some of what goes on in the screenplay 'industry'within the 'real' industry which isn't pleasant for some of us with contestawards or great reviews, but a hard truth nonetheless.
      To be clear, I'm not now endorsing TBL, (although I may useagain) BUT wanted to be fair and honest about my personal experience (since Iposted concerns here) and acknowledge he's made an incredible effort to be fairand honest in return, and do believe he's adhered to one of his founding objectives, that is "to do no harm- to anyone whouses his service.

      Comment


      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

        Originally posted by ChadStrohl View Post
        Also take into account what Geoff said about making $.

        I'm sure I'm not the only person who raised his eyebrows when Chris Daughtry got voted off before Elliot Yamin, Katherine McPhee, and Taylor Hicks. I'm also sure I'm not the only person who immediately rectified it with the assumption that somebody with $ just signed him to a record deal. The whole "voted off" was merely allowing the system to save face and make Idol appear to be 100% genuine.

        Of course I may be wrong. It is just an assumption.
        You're not wrong imho.

        And like Gordon Gekko says in "Wall Street" ,"you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy. are you buddy?"

        The rich ( and powerful ) have been screwing over the unwashed masses since the beginning of time, with the illusion that they have some say in their fate.

        Write a great script and it will be recognized is their mantra.

        It's a load of horseshit. And they know it too.

        As if only great scripts are made in Hollywood. There's a helluva lot of Taylor Hicks scripts making the rounds because some power player thinks he's what the masses crave. Or simply because they like him, the silver haired smokey blue eyed soul or whatever narrative they pinned on him to justify his winning.

        It's all about power. Submit a script on the Black List, get a bunch of 1's and accept that as a final verdict as to your talent level. Because they said so, and thanks for the $75.

        Comment


        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

          As someone who wants the BL system to succeed -- and has submitted a script that got "considers" from ScriptGal and Screenplay Mechanic -- I think the big problem with the metrics is how a single paid read can torpedo a script before it's had a chance to get a second or third opinion, paid or not.

          If you get a 1 - 2 rating for the first read, it won't matter much if you pay for another read and get a 7 or 8, because it will still average out really low. What makes the Nicholl contest fairer, IMO, is even a halfway decent script gets at least 2 or 3 reads by professional coverage people... which I think keeps their readers on their toes and makes it harder for a single reader to say it has no merit whatsoever, which is what a 1 or 2 would seem to indicate.

          My "consider with reservations" script got a 4 from the BL reader and says it is "far from the standard expected for production" even though I was contacted by three different producers, two contest judges who were interested in it, and came in second place in a contest that was judged by Andy Fickman (director/producer of Disney movies), Andy Cohen (Blake Snyder's manager, producer), Chris Vogler (author of The Writer's Journey), Rich Krevolin (USC screenwriting prof) and a TV series producer... who told me the finalists in that particular contest were as good as the agented stuff they had been getting.

          I believe I got the same BL reader for another submission, based on the wording of the ratings review (same slapdash style, phrases) who gave a 2 to a sci-fi spec that was in the top 15 percent of last year's Nicholls, and top 10 percent of Austin... more importantly though, I actually got calls from two producers when it was listed on InkTip. It was way out of their budget range, but to say "This script is far from the standard for production" is kind of questionable when I've actually optioned scripts to veteran screenwriters/producers in the biz.

          But that doesn't mean the top rated BL scripts don't deserve to be there. However, it's possible that a script with an "average" rating in the 5-7 range for one reader might get a 7-9 rating from another reader who connects with it better. Then the metrics gives the writer a fighting chance. If you get a 2-4 though from the first reader, pretty much game over.

          I'd like to know if the readers know whether the writers are repped or not when they are assigned scripts to cover?

          Rich

          Comment


          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

            Originally posted by RGF View Post
            Then you go tell our Evil Robot/Screenplay Mechanic that he was wrong for placing it in his top ten of 2011. Or the producers and director who spent most of last year and this year working their asses off to set up an international co-pro on it and get it financed.
            RGF -

            At least in your case, I don't think it's whining or sour grapes. It's completely understandable that you would be downright perplexed by a score of 1, given the background on you and your script. I am too. I actually thought there may have been a glitch, but I guess not.

            Obviously you don't want to drop another $50 to see what a second reader would give it, but it has to be tempting. I'm really curious, but not curious enough to pay the $50 for you.

            HOWEVER - It's absolutely understandable why Franklin would be hesitant to set a precedent of second guessing the readers that he personally hired. And if he did it for just one guy, the floodgates would open. I also totally agree that the readers should be really stringent in evaluating the material. We all want the BL3 to be a success. If it started to get clogged with dreck, then the professionals wouldn't take it seriously, and would stop participating.

            But it seems like maybe the scoring could be fine tuned and made sure it's consistent across the board. I mean, there should be a way to differentiate between, say, a script that isn't even coherent, and a script that, while competently written, the reader just didn't like anything about it. And I would hope that, say, a 1, or a 7, means the same thing to all of the readers. I think it would be helpful to include ratings like pass, consider with reservations, strong consider, and recommend. And, like a previous commenter suggested, separate scores for concept and execution.

            I thank all of the brave souls who volunteered to go first, and have shared their experiences with the rest of us.

            And thanks and kudos to Franklin for his great experiment, and for his amazing patience and diligence in responding to all of the chatter about it. For everybody's sake, I hope it turns out to be a huge success.
            "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

            Comment


            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

              Great. Conspiracy theories. Because that's how you become a better writer. By pretending you're already awesome and everyone else can't see it.

              If your script isn't good enough, it's not good enough. If it is, it is. Period. No one is conspiring to keep you out.

              But if conspiracy theories help you sleep at night...

              Comment


              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                Originally posted by ATB View Post
                Great. Conspiracy theories. Because that's how you become a better writer. By pretending you're already awesome and everyone else can't see it.

                If your script isn't good enough, it's not good enough. If it is, it is. Period. No one is conspiring to keep you out.

                But if conspiracy theories help you sleep at night...

                Because no one ever abuses power, or skims a script, or might sink one out of contempt.

                People are always fair minded, and genuine in their efforts to see to it that the cream rises to the top.

                Because people in Hollywood genuinely like to see others succeed, and cattiness and petty jealousies are the stuff of delusional writers. Pure science fiction, not at all part of human nature.

                Power never corrupts.

                All is right with the world. So if you get a 1 on Black List, go back to work on it for another five years and maybe you'll work your way up to a 3.

                Or maybe you don't have the chops and should give up. Leave writing movies to ATB.

                Comment


                • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                  I'm happy the BL 3.0 is giving exposure to new writers and making more avenues. That being said. Writing is so subjective that's why I'm personally against paid coverages. There are scripts every day that get bought, people say aren't good. And scripts that are great that don't get bought.

                  I think great writing usually rises to the top, but have seen instances where it doesn't happen. At the end of the day, I think writing a great script is what matters, but don't think you should ever pay for your script to be read. It's just too much of a subjective business, to put your money in the trust of one reader, no matter how well trained they are.

                  I was just at a meeting with a producer 2 weeks ago, we talked about a well liked spec he passed on that he thought was terrible, and it sold.

                  Another example is LOOPER, I love the movie. Love it. I loved the screenplay. I've talked to people in the industry who say the story has many flaws and problems. So if someone wrote a LOOPER type script and submitted it to the BLACK LIST site, I imagine a reader would've probably not rated it high.

                  Calculate less. Write the best script you can, and get it out there. This idea of paying to be discovered is something I think that hurts writers. I understand in theory what it's try to do, but it seems like a flawed process.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                    Originally posted by halloweenjak View Post
                    All is right with the world. So if you get a 1 on Black List, go back to work on it for another five years and maybe you'll work your way up to a 3.
                    Five years? Five months, maybe. Or try a different avenue of exposure. Or write a new script.

                    There are other ways in. But if you're trying multiple avenues and nothing is working, maybe you need to be focusing more on your writing and less on placing blame on everyone but yourself...

                    Comment


                    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                      Originally posted by ATB View Post
                      Five years? Five months, maybe. Or try a different avenue of exposure. Or write a new script.

                      There are other ways in. But if you're trying multiple avenues and nothing is working, maybe you need to be focusing more on your writing and less on placing blame on everyone but yourself...
                      Yes, and Van Gogh really needed to work on his paintings because nothing was selling.

                      It wasn't the establishment, it was his shortcomings as an artist.

                      I get it now. Talent gets recognized, always. It's becoming all so clear...

                      Comment


                      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                        Originally posted by cshel View Post
                        Geoff -

                        In response to whether you'd have requested to read this script if sent to you via regular query, you replied, "If the guys had included all their info, I lean towards a yes." Will you please explain what you mean - what info?

                        Good question because the answer speaks to the value of having some kind of authentic, objective proof that a script is more likely to be good.

                        The guys in question have something in development with a company that I knew about and whose taste I respect. So I would have been much quicker to say yes as it demonstrates a higher probability of at least some level of competence.

                        Same idea as the BL, really, it's much more likely to be worth your time if a script has already passed through a filter of some sort.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                          Halloweenjak -

                          Just want to set the record straight about American Idol. The judges may pick the larger talent pool that they think have a chance of making it, but it's the "American" audience that votes for who stays and who goes, and the ultimate winner. So blame the audience who voted for Taylor Hicks to win his season, not the judges.

                          "Hollywood" will judge what material they think will make profitable films, but ultimately you have to blame the audience if they keep paying to go see the "Taylor Hicks" movies.
                          "The Hollywood film business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson

                          Comment


                          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                            Reading this thread made me think of something Noah Hawley said at one of the panels in Austin - you're going to get rejected a lot and hear "No" a lot, and you just have to learn to not take it personally.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                              Originally posted by cshel View Post
                              Halloweenjak -

                              Just want to set the record straight about American Idol. The judges may pick the larger talent pool that they think have a chance of making it, but it's the "American" audience that votes for who stays and who goes, and the ultimate winner. So blame the audience who voted for Taylor Hicks to win his season, not the judges.

                              "Hollywood" will judge what material they think will make profitable films, but ultimately you have to blame the audience if they keep paying to go see the "Taylor Hicks" movies.
                              That pool of contestants is determined by a panel of judges.

                              Getting our choice of a very limited and suspect pool, determined by the likes of Paula Abdul is not exactly choice in the purest sense of the word. It's the illusion of choice.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                                [QUOTE=halloweenjak;834776]You're not wrong imho.

                                And like Gordon Gekko says in "Wall Street" ,"you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy. are you buddy?"

                                The rich ( and powerful ) have been screwing over the unwashed masses since the beginning of time, with the illusion that they have some say in their fate.

                                Write a great script and it will be recognized is their mantra.

                                It's a load of horseshit. And they know it too.<

                                Completely disagree. Write a great script and it will be recognized. Doesn't mean it will be bought or made, doesn't mean people will invest money in it, but it will be recognized.

                                Comment

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