Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

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  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
    Franklin:

    Gotta say, I admire the way you've hung in here. I just signed up - I'm curious to see it for myself.
    This alone is high praise indeed. I'm going to PM you my email address. Please contact me if you have any questions, concerns, or ideas as you explore the site.

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    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

      Originally posted by Geoff Alexander View Post
      And, by the way, I read a script yesterday that was suggested to me by the algorithm, and I liked the writing a lot. Already in touch with the writers. So, for me, it's already a success because I read something that showed real potential.
      Great news! Glad it's working for you. I, for one, have been really awed by the quality of our algorithm (and I fully admit my bias here). It's only going to get better. Sean Owen, a former Google product lead and one of the leading thinkers on recommendation algorithms on Earth (and also a close friend from college) is going to be getting involved in improving it!

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      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

        Originally posted by TroyWidner View Post
        Question for Franklin when he bravely comes back on and wades through all the various posts: If a writer takes down their listing, does a significant rewrite, then reposts, is there any way to tag the upload as such so that the script might land in the hands of a fresh paid reader? Even if it lands in the hands of the same reader, I'm thinking it would be helpful if they knew it was a rejiggered version. (I seem to remember a "revision" field on the upload form, but can't recall its purpose.)

        On a separate note, I applaud Franklin's candor and commitment during this. I've been in his same shoes before and I can vouch for the fact that launching a web service like this isn't easy. Lots of behind-the-scenes technical stuff to deal with - all while balancing communication with paying customers.
        Great question re: rewrites. We have some precautions in place to make certain that a reader never reads material with the same title and author. In the event that the title has been changed, it's obviously more difficult, but our readers have been informed that if they are familiar with a script or a writer at all prior to reading it, they are expected to reroute it to another reader. Admittedly, this is on the honor system, but they also know that the penalty for violating it would be immediate dismissal. Moreover, if it happened, we would remove the review from the delinquent reviewer, grant that writer a new review from a different writer (gratis), and an additional gratis read.

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        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

          Originally posted by Storytell View Post
          In the interest of fairness to Franklin I'd like toacknowledge that he sent me a PM saying he was interested in specifics about myexperience with TBL, which I gave, and about which he very promptly repliedback.

          Although I still don't quite understand how they get an "averagescore- out of the categories rated, that is a very minor issue. It also causedme to put ego aside and be as objective and honest as possible about my 'score.' I now find I must applaud what Franklinis trying to do with TBL.
          The truth is Franklin's readers are far more objective froman industry point of view than the contest awards and notes I received, as wellas the professional coverage ratings given (with the exception of ScreenplayMechanic). When forced to think this through, I realized that TBL readers (andFranklin) have absolutely NOTHING to gain by giving out 2s and 3s to writersunless they honestly believed that.
          They could easily give out 4s, 5s even 6s since those scoresaren't going to generate reads from their industry pros in the database. BUTTHEY DO NOT DO THAT even though they could. Which is what, in effect, mostcontests and coverage services do - and we have to be honest here about this.Plus, in the case of contests (with the exception of Trackingb and Nicholl), weare being judge against other amateurs and the pool of basically amateurscripts submitted.
          As a result, far too many unrealistic expectations have beencreated about work that is, in all likelihood, not up to industry standards,and this is proven by the incredibly few contest winners and finalists that arenever heard from again. Same for 'considers'given by coverage services.
          The exception here, as noted above, is my experience with ScreenplayMechanic. Because he has given some of my scripts 'hard' passes, notsugar-coated in any way, (in effect 2s, 3s) and also, on rare occasion, 'considers,'which has made me trust his good ratings far more.
          But that aside, I've come to see that Franklin has, in a way- a good way actually - exposed some of what goes on in the screenplay 'industry'within the 'real' industry which isn't pleasant for some of us with contestawards or great reviews, but a hard truth nonetheless.
          To be clear, I'm not now endorsing TBL, (although I may useagain) BUT wanted to be fair and honest about my personal experience (since Iposted concerns here) and acknowledge he's made an incredible effort to be fairand honest in return, and do believe he's adhered to one of his founding objectives, that is "to do no harm- to anyone whouses his service.
          Storytell, thank you for your incredibly kind words and thoughtful response. Truly, it means a lot.

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          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

            Re: the genre question and accuracy of reviews.

            I uploaded a romcom, got a "5" total, "8" on concept.

            Script has never been less than QF any contest. I entered 1st 3 pages when pro forum started up. Craig Mazin loved the concept, crapped all over the overwriting (I tried to impress and got called on it, changed it completely.)

            So yes, BL3.0 was spot on. Good concept no conflict, did not live up to potential. Loved the protag characterization but felt the antag was one-dimensional. Got a 4 on plot, also wrote "thougths" so must be on the master. The short notes were concise, accurate, and helpful for the rewrite.

            I only have one review, the one I paid for, with 10 look/sees. It took exactly a week and I got an email the review was up. I'd give the site an "8" or "9". Damn it, must do better.
            Last edited by merrymary; 10-27-2012, 09:35 AM.

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            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

              Originally posted by richfigel View Post
              As someone who wants the BL system to succeed -- and has submitted a script that got "considers" from ScriptGal and Screenplay Mechanic -- I think the big problem with the metrics is how a single paid read can torpedo a script before it's had a chance to get a second or third opinion, paid or not.

              If you get a 1 - 2 rating for the first read, it won't matter much if you pay for another read and get a 7 or 8, because it will still average out really low. What makes the Nicholl contest fairer, IMO, is even a halfway decent script gets at least 2 or 3 reads by professional coverage people... which I think keeps their readers on their toes and makes it harder for a single reader to say it has no merit whatsoever, which is what a 1 or 2 would seem to indicate.

              My "consider with reservations" script got a 4 from the BL reader and says it is "far from the standard expected for production" even though I was contacted by three different producers, two contest judges who were interested in it, and came in second place in a contest that was judged by Andy Fickman (director/producer of Disney movies), Andy Cohen (Blake Snyder's manager, producer), Chris Vogler (author of The Writer's Journey), Rich Krevolin (USC screenwriting prof) and a TV series producer... who told me the finalists in that particular contest were as good as the agented stuff they had been getting.

              I believe I got the same BL reader for another submission, based on the wording of the ratings review (same slapdash style, phrases) who gave a 2 to a sci-fi spec that was in the top 15 percent of last year's Nicholls, and top 10 percent of Austin... more importantly though, I actually got calls from two producers when it was listed on InkTip. It was way out of their budget range, but to say "This script is far from the standard for production" is kind of questionable when I've actually optioned scripts to veteran screenwriters/producers in the biz.

              But that doesn't mean the top rated BL scripts don't deserve to be there. However, it's possible that a script with an "average" rating in the 5-7 range for one reader might get a 7-9 rating from another reader who connects with it better. Then the metrics gives the writer a fighting chance. If you get a 2-4 though from the first reader, pretty much game over.

              I'd like to know if the readers know whether the writers are repped or not when they are assigned scripts to cover?

              Rich
              I want to explain again how our system works with regard to "do no harm:"

              If you get a low first rating, you are able to hide that rating and your average score. It is only visible to you.

              If you get another read from one of our readers and that reader rates it highly, our members will be made aware of that high rating. They will be unaware of the previous low rating unless you choose to make it public.

              Let me say it again: one high rating from a reader results in us spotlighting your script via email to our membership, regardless of the previous ratings a script may have received.

              A script that received a low rating is not "torpedoed" or "left for dead" (former used here, latter used elsewhere). We are well aware that some of the best art is polarizing. Personally, I generally find myself drawn to those sorts of scripts anyway. Somewhat selfishly, I wanted to create a system that would allow work that generated both extreme positive and negative reactions to have the potential to get seen.

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              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                Good to know - that was one point I misunderstood. Thank you.
                www.JustinSloanAuthor.com

                http://www.CreativeWritingCareer.com
                http://www.MilitaryVeteransinCreativeCareers.com

                Twitter: @JustinMSloan

                Want a free book?

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                • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                  Franklin -

                  Thanks for the explanation re second reads. I thought all ratings were factored into the metrics.

                  I think what's worth pointing out is the Black List came into being because there were good scripts that weren't selling or getting produced for whatever reasons -- in a sense, it was a second chance for good material to be discovered. As it is, not everyone will always agree what belongs on the BL or not.

                  I realize contests are different animals. Yet many of those paid readers and industry people who judge the finals, are also looking for good material that sometimes deserves a second look from professionals. It would be a shame if some BL readers are using a double standard for pros versus amateurs.

                  I'll give you an example: my former manager, who passed away last year, repped Tarantino for 10 years. She told me that when she first started sending out his stuff, agents and producers were calling her and yelling at her for sending them "garbage" (except they used much harsher language). Once he hit it big, those same people were calling and asking why she hadn't sent his latest script to them before anyone else.

                  Aloha,
                  Rich

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                  • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                    Originally posted by richfigel View Post
                    I think what's worth pointing out is the Black List came into being because there were good scripts that weren't selling or getting produced for whatever reasons -- in a sense, it was a second chance for good material to be discovered.
                    Franklin can correct me if I'm wrong -- but pretty sure this a constantly perpetuated misnomer that people keep clinging to for whatever reason. From the beginning the Black List has been clear. It's a "most liked" list that Franklin started simply to get suggestions from people he trusted about any script not yet released that was worth reading.

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                    • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                      From the BL site:
                      "It began as a survey. In 2005, Franklin Leonard surveyed almost 100 film industry development executives about their favorite scripts from that year that had not been made as feature films."

                      Not made, not produced for whatever reason at that time. Maybe the script had been optioned, sold or maybe not... or got stuck in development hell. It's implied that being on the BL list has helped push those projects forward, no?

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                      • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                        You're quoting a shorthand description from the website and arguing the semantics of the word "made"...

                        If you look at the list itself it's more explicit in that it defines the criteria specifically as films not yet released in theaters -- that's what "made" means in that context. There are plenty of scripts on every Black List that were in various stages of development, production, post production and even in the can by the time the list came out.

                        There's no doubt the Black List has boosted scripts whether by giving them a "second life" or highlighting something that's not been purchased. And it's awesome when that happens. But that's a positive byproduct -- not the intent. The Black List is what it is plain and simple. It just amuses me that so many are constantly trying to redefine something that has pretty simple and specific parameters about it -- and then getting annoyed when it doesn't live up to those invented definitions.

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                        • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                          What if you have a script/subject matter which is, well, brutal and gritty (I guess the buzz word would be "polarizing")...can the reader separate whatever negative emotions they might have and still be able to give it a high rating simply for the writing or voice? We all know what happened with Amazon and their "readers"...
                          http://www.pjmcilvaine.com/

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                          • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                            Originally posted by Alfred Parker View Post

                            There's no doubt the Black List has boosted scripts whether by giving them a "second life" or highlighting something that's not been purchased. And it's awesome when that happens. But that's a positive byproduct -- not the intent. The Black List is what it is plain and simple. It just amuses me that so many are constantly trying to redefine something that has pretty simple and specific parameters about it -- and then getting annoyed when it doesn't live up to those invented definitions.
                            I agree. For some reason people tend to think the BL is responsible for launching careers, which might indeed be the case with some scripts, but if you look at the list, it's a lot of studio generated products by some of the world's most famous and successful screenwriters. It's probably not too risky a move to vote for Tarantino or Sorkin....

                            A "GREY LIST" would be awesome SPECS (not assignments, not pitches approved and funded by studio execs) by writers either pro or not, either repped or not, that got read and garnered a lot of positive buzz but that somehow didn't sell. Now that would be a cool list.

                            I guess ultimately that's what Franklin is trying to do via a paying service, only with a hell of a lot more math involved.

                            This plus this multiplied by this divided by this times this = read this script!

                            Kind of like, you buy one thing off e-bay and you get e-mails for the rest of your life? Maybe not.

                            Meh, good luck to all the peeps trying it out, hope you and the site produce amazingly awesome results!!
                            Last edited by Rantanplan; 10-26-2012, 08:55 PM.

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                            • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                              AND, to Geoff (and the question also applies to Michael B since you're also a rep):

                              I don't think you fully answered SC's question, which was a great one: do reps respond to a query / logline alone, or do they require the validation of another party before requesting a script?

                              It's a well known fact that many reps delete an e-query before even reading it, so an honest answer would be much appreciated here

                              I mean let's face it, if you find a great script by an amazing, non-repped writer on BL, it was probably at some point a query that you deleted from your IN-BOX. No?

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                              • Re: Black List founder Franklin Leonard answers your questions about the Black List

                                Originally posted by Rantanplan View Post
                                AND, to Geoff (and the question also applies to Michael B since you're also a rep):

                                I don't think you fully answered SC's question, which was a great one: do reps respond to a query / logline alone, or do they require the validation of another party before requesting a script?

                                It's a well known fact that many reps delete an e-query before even reading it, so an honest answer would be much appreciated here

                                I mean let's face it, if you find a great script by an amazing, non-repped writer on BL, it was probably at some point a query that you deleted from your IN-BOX. No?
                                Very possible it was a query letter that was deleted and never read.

                                But, there is a reason for that.

                                The vast majority of writers are not good. Most are wasting their time and will never have the careers they dream of. Most lack the talent and creativity, and even then, some of the ones that have those lack the people skills.

                                I believe the average writer, per the WGA, works in the business for 5 years or less. The vast majority will not have the careers of those pros like Mazin, Derek, and Lowell that so graciously spend their time helping out here.

                                I do not say this to dishearten anyone on this board. I say this to put into perspective something. That vast majority all feel they will make it (and rightfully so, you never know until you try, and life is all about giving it your best show). But, all of those people send out query letters to people around town. And occasionally one has an interesting log line so we say what the hell and ask for the script, only to have it be painfully bad.

                                And how you have a site, that can help us (those in the business), go find the ones that have been weeded out? Yes, please, and thank you for making it happen, Franklin.

                                Also, to chime on what others have argued about. Great scripts will find their way. Derek Haas said something in Austin which I will probably be saying for years. Great scripts glow in the dark. They shine in a sea of bad writing and bad ideas. Very few will have those glowing scripts, but when they are read, they glow bright, and Hollywood can find them. It may not happen overnight, but they find their way. And again, Hollywood can't wait to find them.

                                As many have said before on done deal, there is one way, and only one way you will ever know if you can make it..... keep writing. Write because you love it and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe you'll write a great script and have a career, or maybe you'll just have a hobby you love (and if you love it, it's not a waste of time), only time will tell.

                                But all this nitpicking of the black list is pretty much at the point of being ridiculous (like so many threads on here get to be). Geoff has already found a script he likes. I'm sure many more stories will come of it. What further proof do you need? If you don't like your score, go rewrite your script. Or take it down. No one is making you sign up for the site. As for me, as of now, I think it's pretty cool.

                                Best,

                                MB

                                PS - That same thing goes for actors, directors, authors, producers, managers, etc. That's just the reality of trying to make it in a creative field. A huge challenge.
                                Last edited by michaelb; 10-26-2012, 11:00 PM.
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