Michael Arndt's video on endings

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  • Michael Arndt's video on endings

    http://www.pandemoniuminc.com/endings-video

    Have you seen it already?

    I have enjoyed Arndt's old video on beginnings but this feels terribly formulaic (despite his numerous denouncements) down to the timecode when inciting incident and other beats happen. To be honest I see it on the level of Save the Cat pedantry and can't believe John and Craig on Scriptnotes podcast recommend it, lauding it for not being formulaic... which it is... TERRIBLY SO


  • #2
    Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

    saw Michael deliver this at AFF and re-watched the video last week. he states up front that it specifically isn't a formula for how to write a story. it's his analysis of how each of the three films pay off multiple levels of stakes in the span of about two minutes at the climactic point of Act III. and looking backward to see how each film sets up the different types of stakes for the protagonist. being aware that there might be three levels of stakes for a given story doesn't assume or imply that the story itself will be formulaic per se though

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    • #3
      Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

      Originally posted by goldmund View Post
      http://www.pandemoniuminc.com/endings-video

      Have you seen it already?

      I have enjoyed Arndt's old video on beginnings but this feels terribly formulaic (despite his numerous denouncements) down to the timecode when inciting incident and other beats happen. To be honest I see it on the level of Save the Cat pedantry and can't believe John and Craig on Scriptnotes podcast recommend it, lauding it for not being formulaic... which it is... TERRIBLY SO

      I don't know about it being formulaic but I just started watching it and I will say this --

      Arndt talks about coming up with this great insight. He'd read about this notion of stories having two different "stakes" -- the external stakes and the internal stakes -- but his big insight was that there was a third set of stakes, what he calls the "philosophical stakes."

      But honestly, I think that he's wrong. Those "internal" stakes are the philosophical stakes because that stuff that's going on inside your protagonist, that internal tension, the want vs. need, or however you want to describe it -- in a traditional narrative film -- that should be the philosophical stakes of your movie -- in the sense that what's going on inside your protagonist should embody the larger central theme of the story -- in the same way that it should embody the larger external dramatic arc of the story.

      So there's no third "stakes" or third arc or anything like that.

      So right off the bat, I found that I wasn't really interested in watching an hour and a half of Arndt's insight into something that I didn't really think made much sense.

      Hey, as he said, if it works for you, go ahead -- the same way people who want to right five act movies -- sure, whatever. However many acts, however many "stakes" -- whatever works, but I'd got naps to take.

      NMS

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      • #4
        Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

        Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
        I don't know about it being formulaic but I just started watching it and I will say this --

        Arndt talks about coming up with this great insight. He'd read about this notion of stories having two different "stakes" -- the external stakes and the internal stakes -- but his big insight was that there was a third set of stakes, what he calls the "philosophical stakes."

        But honestly, I think that he's wrong. Those "internal" stakes are the philosophical stakes because that stuff that's going on inside your protagonist, that internal tension, the want vs. need, or however you want to describe it -- in a traditional narrative film -- that should be the philosophical stakes of your movie -- in the sense that what's going on inside your protagonist should embody the larger central theme of the story -- in the same way that it should embody the larger external dramatic arc of the story.

        So there's no third "stakes" or third arc or anything like that.

        So right off the bat, I found that I wasn't really interested in watching an hour and a half of Arndt's insight into something that I didn't really think made much sense.

        Hey, as he said, if it works for you, go ahead -- the same way people who want to right five act movies -- sure, whatever. However many acts, however many "stakes" -- whatever works, but I'd got naps to take.

        NMS
        I did watch the whole thing and the philosophical stakes seem to me to really be the development of the theme as explored through the conflicting ideals of the world at large vs. the "underdog views" that the protagonist must ultimately choose between.

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        • #5
          Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

          Originally posted by Screenplay Savant View Post
          I did watch the whole thing and the philosophical stakes seem to me to really be the development of the theme as explored through the conflicting ideals of the world at large vs. the "underdog views" that the protagonist must ultimately choose between.
          That seems to be a very eclectic way of looking at a pretty traditional view of thematic structure.

          In The Godfather, Michael is torn between love and loyalty to family and doing the right thing. I suppose you could view the latter as "ideals of the world at large" but are the former really the "underdog views?" In what sense? I mean, I suppose you can twist anything to fit anything but that certainly isn't how one would think of that internal tension when watching the movie or in any conventional analysis of it.

          Or what, for instance, are Rick in Casablanca's "underdog views?" vs. the ideals of the world at large? He says early that he "sticks his neck out for nobody -- but that's not really one pole of his internal choice -- that is, between selfishness and selflessness.

          The choice is between his need to love (in both a personal and a universal sense) and accepting the cost of loving. We start off with him refusing to accept it and end with him choosing to accept it.

          I understand the choices that he makes in terms of traditional structure, but that distinction doesn't seem to offer much traction in clarifying it.

          So -- I guess I'm just sticking with what works. And, sure, there are lots of movies where any given thing may not apply but -- there you go.

          NMS

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          • #6
            Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

            The third set of stakes is whether or not the audience will sit through the whole movie and come out saying they like it.
            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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            • #7
              Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

              Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
              That seems to be a very eclectic way of looking at a pretty traditional view of thematic structure.
              I agree with you completely.

              I don't look at theme as "philosophical stakes", but that's what I think he was saying.

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              • #8
                Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                Michael has posted another insanely great lecture, going through all the mistakes he made in writing Toy Story 3, act point by act point, and showing how he and the Pixar team figured out the fixes. Absolute clinic in structure.

                http://www.pandemoniuminc.com/ts3-mi...essons-learned

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                • #9
                  Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                  Oh this looks cool.

                  The first video did not do it for me as it was an A list screenwriter using examples of some of the best movies of all time and that doesn't translate to me. It's easy to explain things AFTER the movies are made. It's hard to give roadmap for writers so they might be able to write a movie that is 1% as good as the examples shown. Also it doesn't translate as well to comedy, action, horror, thriller movies. They always use the same 5-10 movies as examples and I'm like what about Wedding Crashers? And guess what SAVE THE CAT does just that. So it's one of my favorites. I think people just crap on it because it feels too pop culture and not high minded -- but i think it's brilliant. But you don't have to watch any of these videos or read the books to be a great screenwriter. So win-win.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                    Originally posted by JoeBanks View Post
                    Michael has posted another insanely great lecture, going through all the mistakes he made in writing Toy Story 3, act point by act point, and showing how he and the Pixar team figured out the fixes. Absolute clinic in structure.

                    http://www.pandemoniuminc.com/ts3-mi...essons-learned
                    I absolutely loved this video. Really interesting to see great writers still s̶t̶r̶u̶g̶g̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ learning more about their own process and writing. I've watched this 4 times and took notes, applied to a re-write of mine, and it's helped a lot. Full of pearls and nuggets of wisdom.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                      The Blu-ray version of Toy Story 3 has a disk full of special features, including Arndt's talk on beginnings and other behind the scenes bits, like two different audio commentaries as you watch the movie. It's worth buying or renting if you're interested in how Pixar makes product.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                        Originally posted by lostfootage View Post
                        The Blu-ray version of Toy Story 3 has a disk full of special features, including Arndt's talk on beginnings and other behind the scenes bits, like two different audio commentaries as you watch the movie. It's worth buying or renting if you're interested in how Pixar makes product.
                        Oh wow, that's amazing. Guess I'm picking up a copy. Thank you!

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                        • #13
                          Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                          This Sundance Collab master class with Meg LeFauve is the abridged version of a longer seminar she gives on character (which is similarly great) but she also tracks with a lot of the same ideas as Michael, having worked on Inside Out:

                          https://collab.sundance.org/catalog/...CAPTAIN-MARVEL

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                          • #14
                            Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                            Originally posted by JoeBanks View Post
                            This Sundance Collab master class with Meg LeFauve is the abridged version of a longer seminar she gives on character (which is similarly great) but she also tracks with a lot of the same ideas as Michael, having worked on Inside Out:

                            https://collab.sundance.org/catalog/...CAPTAIN-MARVEL
                            Oh I saw this. This was another really great talk. There's a bunch of people in the comment section asking / hoping they'll release the Q and A portion - which I'd love to see. Hope they can release that second part.
                            Thanks for sending this though, I had lost the link and wanted to re-watch.

                            Pixar seems to be the promised land for really honing your skills as a writer. Amazing what one company has churned out consistently.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Michael Arndt's video on endings

                              It's funny how she says notes are people's way of telling you that they do not understand your story yet.

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