Three Act Structure (Part 2)

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  • #46
    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

    Heh. Forced hiatus is no joke!

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    • #47
      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
      Heh. Forced hiatus is no joke!
      Welcome Back, Kotter
      “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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      • #48
        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

        I have always thought of Jeff more as more of a Mr. Woodman type myself.

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        • #49
          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

          I think I would cast him as a lead character, so there’s that to consider.
          “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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          • #50
            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

            42 Ways To Avoid Writing A Boring Screenplay

            One hour, forty-two minutes, and twenty-six seconds of forty-two topics about screenwriting from professional screenwriters.
            “Nothing is what rocks dream about” ― Aristotle

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            • #51
              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

              Joe, when I first started, I didn't know anything about structure, form, craft, or voice, or screenwriting gurus, and I was a young man in my 20s, burning with ambition and a desire to write, but imitating those who had come before. In time, I learned necessary skills, and I concentrated on how to construct the analytical screenplay, as you seem to want to do, but then I learned something else: writing comes down to whether or not you understand human nature, and whether or not you are able to excite or stir another person's emotions, or deep down touch their soul. Writing is about whether or not you can emote from the heart, and strum those beats as automatically as a musician strums his or her strings.

              Learn the craft, but write from the soul. If you are always stuck on step one, you will never succeed.

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              • #52
                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                Originally posted by Ven View Post

                Learn the craft, but write from the soul. If you are always stuck on step one, you will never succeed.
                "stuck"?

                Who's stuck? What are you implying by being "stuck on step one." Structure is not "step one." Structure IS the screenplay.

                I'm gonna get into outlining right now:

                There are writers who believe it's all about the art. That creative substance that comes from the writer's heart and soul, where he pours it out onto the page. He believes to just let it flow.

                He doesn't want to think about the craft because that's cold, technical and boring. It's a hindrance to his art. To his creative juices in discovering his story.

                Ven, I'm gonna tell you something that I've learned over the years and which some purists refuse to accept:

                SCREENPLAYS ARE STRUCTURE

                Without it, your story (the movie) is a mess.

                Yes, writing from the heart is important because a writer needs to connect emotionally with his audience, but proper structure is just as important. In order to obtain that proper structure, some writers outline before writing their script. They still use their creative juices in discovering their story, but in a managed way.

                This doesn't mean once the outline is done the discovery is done. As the writer writes his story, he's still open to discovery (or should be), where he might discover creative additions to character and story, or choices that didn't work once implemented, whatever.

                There are writers who don't like to outline (structure their story) beforehand. They want to dive right in and go wherever the creativity takes them, thereby, structuring their story through an organic process (outlining is an organic process, but done in a different way).

                I'm not saying that those who do not outline are wrong. As this thread points out, whatever creative process works for the writer is fine.

                Just know this, for those who don't outline will expend a lot more time and energy in the creative process and writing their script.

                For example, the writer is 50 pages into his script, but he feels the story's not working and he discovers the antagonist enters too late, the Inciting Incident happens too late, pacing's slow, etc. where he now has to go back and rewrite.

                Or the writer reaches the climax and discovers it needs to be different, or it's not strong enough, or whatever. Now he has to rewrite everything that came before the climax to properly set up the new climax.

                Structure is not step one. Structure is an ongoing process to a great completed screenplay.

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                • #53
                  Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                  Originally posted by muckraker View Post
                  When Jeff returns to post something on these boards, you know the virus sitch is for real...
                  Yes, I totally missed this exchange, I'm catching up now.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                    Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                    FWIW, if you write one feature in a month, you're still writing 30-40 scenes, and you're practicing all the other skills necessary to improve as a writer. I don't think the "larger story" is where 20% of the mistakes happen - I'd argue a serious flaw with the larger story (plot, theme, character, etc) dooms a screenplay before you write one scene.
                    Right. That was one of the points of iterating around scenes and sequences instead of an entire feature. Too often people write 40 scenes of a bad idea, reinforcing the bad parts over and over again.

                    Why not get feedback at the scene level until you can write an awesome scene? Then master a sequence that really works. Then work up to a feature. So many "how to write a screenplay" classes start writers off with full scripts and skip over the details of scene writing. That's like picking up a guitar and learning to play Eric Clapton songs without any dedicated practice to basic chord shapes and scales, etc.

                    Why do we teach screenwriting by saying, "Okay! Write a screenplay." Most novelists go through a short story phase.

                    I think for directors it's different because most directors make short films first, before attempting a feature length project.

                    I don't know what my original point was now. Write short stuff and get it to work before you write long stuff. There is my point.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                      Originally posted by Ven View Post
                      Joe, when I first started, I didn't know anything about structure, form, craft, or voice, or screenwriting gurus, and I was a young man in my 20s, burning with ambition and a desire to write, but imitating those who had come before. In time, I learned necessary skills, and I concentrated on how to construct the analytical screenplay, as you seem to want to do, but then I learned something else: writing comes down to whether or not you understand human nature, and whether or not you are able to excite or stir another person's emotions, or deep down touch their soul. Writing is about whether or not you can emote from the heart, and strum those beats as automatically as a musician strums his or her strings.

                      Learn the craft, but write from the soul. If you are always stuck on step one, you will never succeed.
                      I agree with you completely. It's about making people feel something important.
                      "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                        Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                        I agree with you completely. It's about making people feel something important.
                        Or just feel something. Most aspiring screenwriters don't even hit that target.
                        Last edited by lostfootage; 05-01-2020, 11:34 AM. Reason: Added the word: aspiring

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                        • #57
                          Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                          Originally posted by lostfootage View Post
                          Or just feel something. Most aspiring screenwriters don't even hit that target.
                          Agreed. This is most prevalent in the first draft, but a good writer will be able to exploit emotions after allowing others to read their work. I'm not suggesting it was my notes, what I'm saying is that rewriting is the place where everything it elevated to the next level for all writers.

                          I read a friend's script recently and it was good, but the second draft made me cry. I was surprised because I KNEW what was going to happen.

                          That's skill.
                          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                            Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                            ... It's about making people feel something important.
                            Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                            ... I read a friend's script recently and it ... made me cry. ...
                            How about writing a screenplay about a screenplay that makes its readers commit suicide or murder (seven minutes?) after finishing the final page? Too much like the movie The Ring? Not 'visual' enough?
                            Know this: I'm a lazy amateur, so trust not a word what I write.
                            "The ugly can be beautiful. The pretty, never." ~ Oscar Wilde

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                              Originally posted by lostfootage View Post
                              Right. That was one of the points of iterating around scenes and sequences instead of an entire feature. Too often people write 40 scenes of a bad idea, reinforcing the bad parts over and over again.

                              Why not get feedback at the scene level until you can write an awesome scene? Then master a sequence that really works. Then work up to a feature. So many "how to write a screenplay" classes start writers off with full scripts and skip over the details of scene writing. That's like picking up a guitar and learning to play Eric Clapton songs without any dedicated practice to basic chord shapes and scales, etc.

                              Why do we teach screenwriting by saying, "Okay! Write a screenplay." Most novelists go through a short story phase.

                              I think for directors it's different because most directors make short films first, before attempting a feature length project.

                              I don't know what my original point was now. Write short stuff and get it to work before you write long stuff. There is my point.
                              I agree that any screenwriting class that doesn't work on scene craft is a bad one, and there's nothing wrong with exercises. I guess the question is how long do you follow his method? One course seems like enough. Beyond that, you might as well be writing scripts and working on the scenes within the scripts.

                              But again - I've never taken his class. Maybe that's his POV as well and I'm just arguing with myself.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Three Act Structure (Part 2)

                                Originally posted by lostfootage View Post

                                Write short stuff and get it to work before you write long stuff.
                                There are writers like myself who do not enjoy writing short stories, or have the passion to write short stories. I love the screenplay medium, so learning and experimenting with short stories will just sidetrack my growth and enjoyment.

                                If a person wants to be a screenwriter, then write a screenplay.

                                I remember when Gurus suggested newbies not to use voice overs, flashbacks, etc. because being new they don't do them well. What you're suggesting is the same, but with scenes: "Don't write a screenplay until you know how to write a scene."

                                Yes, a new writer needs to learn the craft and know how to construct an effective scene: enter late; leave early, purpose of the scene, conflict, evoke emotions, goal of the character for the scene, negative/positives, setups, good transitioning to the next scene, etc.

                                Yes, study the craft, but put what you learn to practical experience by actually writing screenplays. Not experimenting with short stories, or practice scenes.

                                This is the best way to learn how to write a great screenplay -- eventually anyway.

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