The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

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  • The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

    Decades later it struck me how the premise of TESB makes no sense. Think about it.... the Rebels defeat the Empire at the end of Star Wars. The Death Star is destroyed, Darth Vader manages to escape. The last scene is the heroes getting their medals. A happy ending.

    But three years later the heroes are in an underground bunker and the bad guys are stronger than they were at the end of Star Wars.

    TESB opening text crawl:

    It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy.
    Wouldn't it make more sense if TESB started with the Rebel Alliance strong, pursuing the Imperial remnants and then something dramatic happens and there is a shift in the balance of power and the Empire - led by Vader - 'strikes back!'

    There is no internal logical reason why the heroes are weaker at the start of TESB. It contradicts the ending of the original Star Wars film. It's a huge leap in story logic or, if you prefer, a big U-turn in the plot by George Lucas. I mention this because it looks as if The Force Awakens is going to do the same thing - the Empire will return and battle the heroes - whom, I suspect, will be weaker than they were at the end of Return of the Jedi.

    When it comes to franchise sequels happy endings mean very little. Happy endings are forgotten about. I don't know if this is good storytelling. It might be better to establish the fact the heroes won in the last episode, start the new episode with the heroes still the dominant power and then a dramatic event takes place to change the balance of power. It's kind of cheating or lazy to go from "the heroes won, The End" to "well, actually, the heroes are now hiding from the bad guys."-

    I don't think the big jump in the plot spoils the the film but, said in hindsight, I feel Mr Lucas did dismiss the ending of the original Star Wars film. It was just forgotten about. The heroes won. Well... er.. not they didn't.

    Last edited by moviefan; 03-23-2015, 04:01 AM.

  • #2
    Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

    I am by no means a Star Wars aficionado, and I'm sure this has probably been endlessly discussed on Star Wars forums, but I think your premise that the empire was vanquished and the rebels were victorious at the end of the first Star Wars is simply wrong.

    The Empire was far, far more than the Death Star. The Death Star was just one particularly lethal new weapon, emphasis on new: the empire already possessed huge fleets of ships and had an overwhelming military advantage over the rebels before the death star was created-and after it was destroyed. The empire's power base was vastly greater than one measly Death Star. The empire controlled nearly the entire galaxy.

    At the end of the film, the rebels weren't celebrating the defeat of the empire, they were merely celebrating a victory in one battle (practically the only victory they'd ever had against the empire, I guess, since at the beginning of the film the empire had already basically crushed the rebellion and was in the process of mopping up). I suppose it's true that nobody paused during the celebration to mention that, of course, the victory was fairly meaningless in the grand scheme of things and the empire was probably going to hunt them all down and kill them, but that's just because it would have been poor form to spoil the moment-doesn't mean it's not what all the rebels were thinking in the back of their minds.

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    • #3
      Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

      Winning a major battle doesn't mean you've won the war. It can always turn against you. The Confederates spent the first couple years of the Civil War whipping the North until they fouled up at Gettysburg. The Japanese won at Wake Island, Java Sea, and Bataan before Coral Sea and Midway turned the tide. The Germans repeatedly trounced the Soviets to such an extent that Stalin had a three-day nervous breakdown and was incapable of leadership. It wasn't until 1943 that the huge numbers of Soviet troops and vehicles started overwhelming the Germans. Lucas may be a shitty writer, but the tide turning against the rebels wasn't unrealistic.

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      • #4
        Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

        I always saw the medal ceremony as a morale booster for the rebels, who, up until that point, were about to be stomped out of existence.

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        • #5
          Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

          Originally posted by moviefan View Post
          Decades later it struck me how the premise of TESB makes no sense. Think about it.... the Rebels defeat the Empire at the end of Star Wars. The Death Star is destroyed, Darth Vader manages to escape. The last scene is the heroes getting their medals. A happy ending.

          But three years later the heroes are in an underground bunker and the bad guys are stronger than they were at the end of Star Wars.

          TESB opening text crawl:



          Wouldn't it make more sense if TESB started with the Rebel Alliance strong, pursuing the Imperial remnants and then something dramatic happens and there is a shift in the balance of power and the Empire - led by Vader - 'strikes back!'

          There is no internal logical reason why the heroes are weaker at the start of TESB. It contradicts the ending of the original Star Wars film. It's a huge leap in story logic or, if you prefer, a big U-turn in the plot by George Lucas. I mention this because it looks as if The Force Awakens is going to do the same thing - the Empire will return and battle the heroes - whom, I suspect, will be weaker than they were at the end of Return of the Jedi.

          When it comes to franchise sequels happy endings mean very little. Happy endings are forgotten about. I don't know if this is good storytelling. It might be better to establish the fact the heroes won in the last episode, start the new episode with the heroes still the dominant power and then a dramatic event takes place to change the balance of power. It's kind of cheating or lazy to go from "the heroes won, The End" to "well, actually, the heroes are now hiding from the bad guys."-

          I don't think the big jump in the plot spoils the the film but, said in hindsight, I feel Mr Lucas did dismiss the ending of the original Star Wars film. It was just forgotten about. The heroes won. Well... er.. not they didn't.


          There are plenty of logic problems with TESB -- Hoth is completely surrounded by an entire Imperial Armada (or so it seems) -- and yet somehow or other it looks as if the "entire" rebel army seems to evade capture and scoot off to wherever they were going with nary a ship lost. Or at any rate, we never see so much as a freighter get blasted.

          It would seem that the incredibly precise targeting skills practiced by the ground-based Imperial stormtroopers extends as well to the targeting skills of those guys in all of those Star Destroyers. They literally don't seem to be able to hit a thing.

          Oh, and isn't it incredibly convenient that you have literally an entire planet that you could crash on -- and you just happen to crash within walking distance of the one guy on the planet you happen to be looking for.

          What exactly does that giant monster who lives inside that asteroid usually eat?

          And seriously -- a Star Destroyer has no means of detecting whether something has magnetically grappled itself onto its hull? I guess magnetic mines would be a really excellent weapon -- or then again, just fly a bunch of missiles against one of them, since they obviously have no ability to hit anything with their weapons.

          On the other hand -- The Empire Strikes Back is one of the most enjoyable movies I've ever seen. I still watch it.

          The attack by the Imperial Walkers may be one of the most memorable scenes in all movie history. To quote something said about the original King Kong -- It's the stuff for which movies were made.

          The best of the Star Wars movies (and that best is really only in the original and Empire) still just transports me completely to another world -- so I'm completely willing to overlook all of its flaws.

          NMS

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          • #6
            Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

            The original Star Wars films were made in a time when sci-fi movies were like the old adventure serials. Imagine TESB opening with an old 50's radio announcer reading an intro: "This week on Star Wars! Our heroes are in trouble once again, as the Empire has driven the Rebels into hiding on the ice world Hoth! Darth Vader prepares his galactic fleet to strike back at the Rebels after the destruction of his Death Star weapon."

            I think the Marvel films could actually take a lesson from that. You can see from the success of television programs that resetting at the start of each new episode can be a legitimate way to set up a new story.

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            • #7
              Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

              I don't think Marvel films need to be taking any lessons, but rather giving them.

              They've got it figured out pretty nicely.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                It has some of the most amazing set pieces as nmstevens mentions, but it has no ending. That always annoyed me about it, I hate nothing more than films that don't have endings (see Lord of the Rings)

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                • #9
                  Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                  Originally posted by Bairn_Writer View Post
                  It has some of the most amazing set pieces as nmstevens mentions, but it has no ending. That always annoyed me about it, I hate nothing more than films that don't have endings (see Lord of the Rings)
                  I don't know. I feel like Empire is a great middle film for a trilogy. It ups all the elements from the original and ends basically with an Act II break. The heroes are scattered and seemingly defeated.

                  Most trilogies, the middle film feels like treading water. A placeholder that doesn't really add anything between the beginning and end (see Lord of the Rings).

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                  • #10
                    Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                    Originally posted by UnequalProductions View Post
                    I don't know. I feel like Empire is a great middle film for a trilogy. It ups all the elements from the original and ends basically with an Act II break. The heroes are scattered and seemingly defeated.

                    Most trilogies, the middle film feels like treading water. A placeholder that doesn't really add anything between the beginning and end (see Lord of the Rings).
                    That's the problem with these though isn't it. As stories they are incomplete. If done well and properly they woudl have their own story, or wouldn't be released on their own

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                    • #11
                      Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                      Remember, the rebel base on Yavin had 15 X-wings and 15 Y-wings stationed there... That's it. It was a huge victory for a small group. They won a battle, not the war.
                      I'm never wrong. Reality is just stubborn.

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                        You need to watch a bunch of Monogram and Republic serials.

                        Whole freakin' battles took place between episodes sometimes.

                        Bill
                        Free Script Tips:
                        http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                          People really hating on the Lord of The Rings trilogy? Lord of The Rings might be the greatest trilogy ever in fantasy/sci-fi films.

                          I nearly died having to wait a year to watch each of the sequels. Studios should take lessons from Lord of The Rings. Unfortunately the Hobbit films turned out not so great.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                            Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
                            People really hating on the Lord of The Rings trilogy? Lord of The Rings might be the greatest trilogy ever in fantasy/sci-fi films.

                            I nearly died having to wait a year to watch each of the sequels. Studios should take lessons from Lord of The Rings. Unfortunately the Hobbit films turned out not so great.
                            Guilty I'm afraid. As with Empire Strikes Back they don't as standalone movies, no beginning middle and end.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Empire Strikes Back made no sense...

                              Originally posted by Deion22 View Post
                              People really hating on the Lord of The Rings trilogy? Lord of The Rings might be the greatest trilogy ever in fantasy/sci-fi films.

                              I nearly died having to wait a year to watch each of the sequels. Studios should take lessons from Lord of The Rings. Unfortunately the Hobbit films turned out not so great.
                              The greatest trilogy ever in fantasy/sci-fi? That's not the toughest competition in the world.

                              Don't get me wrong. I love Fellowship of the Rings. And I love Return of the King (though that's the one that really should have been cut into two movies). Two Towers bores me to death.

                              I'd have to go with Star Wars as the greatest trilogy ever in fantasy/sci-fi. But it's really between those two. What else is there? The Matrix?

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