Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

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  • #31
    Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

    Not kidding I'm blown away any writer doesn't love Breaking Bad. Like I watched all of The Sopranos -- I have plenty of problems with it -- but just watching James G as Tony was one the best acting experiences of our lifetime. The show was good but he was great. It's really what started this all for modern times.

    And it's just fiction. It's not real life. I have these fights with non-writers -- but always surprised writers -- who probably write some terrible things their characters do that they would never do in a million years -- can't appreciate the difference.

    If you like Goodfellas or Godfather movies -- you are routing for the bad guys but they are against other bad guys.

    Anyway in 2020 -- a character like Walter White is the norm on drama TV it seems to me. Ozark is it's cousin. Even the good guys that were on TV like on Justified -- he would walk around shooting everyone and the bad Neo Nazi guy became like the second lead and you started to like him.

    I'll admit I did watch The Shield and I didn't like it. So it's not just them being bad and I'm in. It's still about the story and characters.

    I understood Tony. Walter White. And I wanted to know see if they could survive the crazy world they lived in and part of me deep down wonders could I do anything they did...

    First "bad guy" I recall liking was Hans Gruber in Die Hard. They always say the bad guy doesn't know he's the bad guy he thinks he's the good guy. And that is key to these characters. Walter White is convinced he's doing it for his family but by the end he comes to terms with that he's doing it for himself. And the pitch was taking a teacher Mr. Chips to Scarface. And they did that. And it's great. You should all give it another chance.

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    • #32
      Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

      any writer doesn't love Breaking Bad
      Couldn't get past S1.E6. Sorry.

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      • #33
        Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

        That's fine. Honestly just trying to stir the pot. I'm usually the one that hates all the things people love -- so I've been there. I mean i'm still a mainstream whore -- but I'm talking about I'm the guy that loves comedy and doesn't like Big Lebowski and people hate me for it.

        I meant to say I was "surprised" people didn't love it as 2 shows that have 100% approval rating from people I've met in real life where Breaking Bad and The Wire. My parents, my friends, random people -- and we don't all agree on stuff like that. So I'm just surprised.

        And my main point is characters = watchable is the key to any story. Good or bad -- do I enjoy watching this story.

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        • #34
          Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

          Breaking Bad is probably the single best tv experience I've had. We lived in NM for years too so we even did our own little tour. A lot of people were out near Walter's house and all of them saw us pass and nodded like "yes damn it, this is it." Great show, great writing, and amazing acting by Cranston. It's the best example of the neo-western vibe too. Taylor Sheridan is good but hasn't come close yet. Anyway, Walter is clearly not all bad. Seems like he progresses from kinda good with a huge chip to kinda bad, bad, to kinda good again (or at least somewhat redeemed).

          I also come from a family (well, half at least) with life ruining addiction problems but I still enjoyed this story. Walter becomes something of a folk hero like in the old corrido songs but I'd say the show shows the harms of drugs and the drug trade far more than it glorifies them.
          Last edited by DDoc; 06-24-2020, 08:43 AM.

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          • #35
            Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            It's interesting reading the comments because there are certain "bad" characters I can't ever relate to or identify with: drug dealers selling death and murderers.

            I may find them interesting or even intriguing from a psychological point of view. Yet if they suffer a loss -- let's say the loss of a loved one -- I still have no empathy for them because they've taken the lives of others who were loved by someone so karma's a biotch.

            With Silence of the Lambs, I only identified with Clarice. And if she had to play Hannibal and lie about his day at the beach, so be it. He was playing her by communicating with Buffalo Bill.

            I watched Breaking Bad, season one, and a bit of season two, then lost interest. Sure, Walter White needs to finance his cancer treatment and also wants his family to be financially secure if he dies. Yet he has other options early on through a rich friend who offers him a job. He says, "No thanks," and chooses to cook meth. Rather soon, he's accumulated so much cash he's running of places to stash it. More than enough money for his treatment and his family. He still chooses the meth route.

            To me, he's a dying man choosing to sell death to others -- I can't identify with him in any way. Although he may be morbidly interesting like watching a train wreck with morbid interest.

            Without a doubt, my take on drug dealers/kingpins is because I've witnessed the devastation addiction wreaks on users and their families -- devastation that carries from one generation to the next.

            As for cold stone murderers -- I'm mostly interested in seeing them get their comeuppance.

            To each his/her own, I suppose.
            Excessive pride and ambition, amigo. We've seen plenty of stories and characters that highlight the dangers of this but Walter was one of the best imo. I get you in any case though. My dad couldn't get into it either.

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            • #36
              Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

              Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
              As far as identifying with other bad characters, well, I have this real emphatic streak
              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              there are certain "bad" characters I can't ever relate to or identify with: drug dealers selling death and murderers.

              To me, he's a dying man choosing to sell death to others -- I can't identify with him in any way. Although he may be morbidly interesting like watching a train wreck with morbid interest.
              The key thing I think both of you are missing is the human element. I'm sure none of us identify with drug dealers and murderers - hoping the latest one to feature in the headlines gets a light sentence - but part of this is seeing them only as monsters. What all these antihero-led shows did is show is the human angle. We saw them struggle with relationships: wives, children, ambitious subordinates. We saw them try and do right by their families and we saw them having to live by the laws of the jungle because the business they were involved in was full of predators.

              In other words, you can't help but have empathy. You simply cannot be human if you don't. If you're judging them based on the fact that they do criminal acts then you're ignoring what's on screen and judging them on their day job activities. For the first time we got to see the them in 3-D and not just the 1-D - that we usually see - of news headlines where they're only brought to our attention because of their heinous crimes and, as a result, are defined by their illegal endeavours.

              I'm not saying that we should all be loving and fluffy to grade-A criminals but what these shows did, starting with The Sopranos, was show us what we'd never seen before. Imagine the pitch: 'we all know the mafia exists but all we ever see is them in action. Let's give a peek behind the curtains - show the side no one ever gets to see, see how these supposedly-heartless criminals struggle with the same shit we do: life, love, marriage, kids'.

              Also, we empathise because they have a code - if anyone was truly evil then I doubt we'd care but we understand the ethics they live by - even if it's in relation to operating outside the law. And as we identify their morality, their code, we empathise when they're double-crossed or suffer despite their best intentions.

              After all, you identified with, empathised with, and sided with Dirty Harry and all his knock-offs from Cobra to Cash. We all cheered when they cut through the protective red tape of the judicial system, meting out 'justice' to those who deserved it yet the fact is, the things these guys did were reprehensible. Whilst we were cheering them on and saying to our friends 'this is how it should be, criminals have it easy' none of us would actually support cops running around, acting as judge, jury and executioner (which is what Judge Dredd was - in ironic mockery of Dirty Harry), breaking the law, and - most of all - overreacting.

              What do I mean? Shooting dead bank robbers, for a start. John Rambo physically disfigured and even murdered people - cops - hunting him after he escaped custody. Their crime? Making fun of him and hazing him. Or how about John McClane? broke a guy's neck when, after creeping up behind him and pressed a gun against his head, could've just knocked him out. Instead he gets into a fight with him and murders him. Not only did Schwarzenegger drop a small-time nobody off a cliff but did so after the guy gave him the information that he wanted. Did any of us feel grievous offence? Did we dislike him because he 'dealt death'? Fuck, no, we didn't, and so I find it strange that we're having this discussion now just because the people we're talking about don't wear badges.

              Granted, they do a bit more that not wear badges but they're not as far apart as you might like to think - all break the law and act with impunity. Just because the victims of over-zealous vigilante justice are usually bad guys doesn't legitimise the protags' antics yet none of us are appalled and turned off by them. And like I said, the victims in First Blood weren't bad guys and all those cop films where the maverick lead works against the FBI, who have jurisdiction, is obstruction of justice, yet we cheer them on, regardless, when they're just as contemptible as the bad guys we're talking about in this thread.
              Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 06-24-2020, 12:18 PM.
              M.A.G.A.

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              • #37
                Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                Originally posted by Bono View Post
                Not kidding I'm blown away any writer doesn't love Breaking Bad.
                D.I.T.T.O
                M.A.G.A.

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                • #38
                  Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                  Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                  It is interesting, because I feel differently about different "bad" characters. I give you a lot of credit in making it into the second season of Breaking Bad.

                  I didn't make it to episode four.

                  I couldn't get past the entire premise. It took me until the final season came out before I even watched the first three episodes. I come from a family with addiction and to see a character glorified who causes another person harm in the reckless, selfish, corrupt way for profit, is a real turn off to me.

                  As far as identifying with other bad characters, well, I have this real emphatic streak-- I mean, it's not just crying at commercials, I get choked up with a sentimental greeting card.

                  Boldface 1:

                  Well, I was able to watch as much as I did because it was intriguing to watch a mild-mannered science teacher "go bad." But I didn't empathize with (or relate to) him because he was given a legitimate solution to his problem early on.

                  Then he quickly went to the dark side and became a study in "how low will he go" which I found kind of boring and forced, actually. If I recall correctly, he kills someone early on in season one. It was a leap I found hard to take -- one minute he's grading student papers, next minute he's killing people.

                  I can see how fans of the show are intrigued by the plot turns and other characters, but, personally, when I lose interest in the protagonist, I'll wander off. A case can be made that Walter White just went full throttle sociopath really fast. It's hard to expect all audience segments can and will relate to a man who becomes a sociopath virtually overnight.

                  Boldface 2:

                  Oh, I can get choked up and misty over commercials and greeting cards, too. There are "bad" protags I can identify or empathize with but they're few and far between. Hannibal just isn't one of the -- though I found him interesting and intriguing within his dynamic with Clarice.

                  It starts with him being the spider luring her as the fly because that's Hannibal's MO. Yet she manages to disarm him and pull him in by just being her genuine self with him. I found that dynamic compelling but, still, I never empathized with Hannibal.

                  Bono mentioned Goodfellas and that's a "bad" protag I could identify with and feel empathy for.

                  And now it's got me thinking why I could feel that for Henry Hill yet not for Walter White.

                  I think it has to do with the fact Henry Hill's story is true so his choices are relatable because they were based on choices made by a real person working for the mafia. His choices and actions are believable and organic to the story.

                  Meanwhile, Walter White is a fictional character who makes wild WTF? over-the-top choices that are hard for me to identify with or relate to.

                  Maybe that's the lesson: if we're writing "bad" protags aim to keep their choices and goals rooted in reality in a way that the audience can see the protag as "real" and intriguing and possibly even likable.
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                  • #39
                    Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                    Originally posted by DDoc View Post
                    Excessive pride and ambition, amigo. We've seen plenty of stories and characters that highlight the dangers of this but Walter was one of the best imo. I get you in any case though. My dad couldn't get into it either.
                    For me, it was so excessive, so fast and so over the top, it bordered on cartoonish. As I said above in my reply to FA4, he went from a mild-mannered science teacher to a sociopath virtually overnight. It wasn't believable to me.

                    Yet I can see why many people did love the show.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                    • #40
                      Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                      Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                      The key thing I think both of you are missing is the human element. I'm sure none of us identify with drug dealers and murderers - hoping the latest one to feature in the headlines gets a light sentence - but part of this is seeing them only as monsters. What all these antihero-led shows did is show is the human angle. We saw them struggle with relationships: wives, children, ambitious subordinates. We saw them try and do right by their families and we saw them having to live by the laws of the jungle because the business they were involved in was full of predators.

                      In other words, you can't help but have empathy. You simply cannot be human if you don't. ...
                      Huh? I simply can't be human if I can't empathize with Walter White? Whoa.

                      And aren't you contradicting yourself when your first comment in the thread was:

                      Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                      We all know that likeable is not a requirement, relatable is definitely not necessary, and that all that matters is that we're interested. .
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                      • #41
                        Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                        Fair enough, though it's worth noting Walter struggled with the decision to kill that guy early on. If I recall right he was going to let the guy go until he found out he was hiding a weapon (piece of plate or something) and Walter didn't want to accept what it meant. If you really want to see a zero to one hundred sociopath turn you should read up on how that scene was originally going to play. In all honesty seeing how off-base they were, the creators of one of the great contemporary TV shows, gives me more confidence.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                          Originally posted by SundownInRetreat View Post
                          The key thing I think both of you are missing is the human element.
                          So, let me see if I have this right. Because I might not agree with you, I'm somehow wrong? Because I didn't like Breaking Bad?

                          Can you see how that sounds, maybe condescending, a bit arrogant? Opinions are not right or wrong, they're just opinions, one holds no more value than another. It's also not about understanding or not understanding, people have opinions based on their lives and experiences which may be different than yours.

                          In other words, you can't help but have empathy. You simply cannot be human if you don't. If you're judging them based on the fact that they do criminal acts then you're ignoring what's on screen and judging them on their day job activities.
                          You're stating an opinion, Sundown, not a fact. And because I may not empathize the way you do, I"M NOT HUMAN? I actually had a good laugh at that.

                          I'm judging the the show on whether I was entertained. I was not. I wasn't interested in spending my time watching it, so I didn't. Period. You can try to explain your position until you're blue in the face, but that is the bottom line.

                          I'm not saying that we should all be loving and fluffy to grade-A criminals but...
                          No, you're just saying we should agree with you. That's what you're saying. You're saying our opinion is only valid if it agrees with yours. Which is silly, really.

                          No hard feelings.
                          FA4
                          Last edited by finalact4; 06-24-2020, 11:31 AM.
                          "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy b/c you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." -- Edward Snowden

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                          • #43
                            Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                            Boldface 1:
                            Then he quickly went to the dark side and became a study in "how low will he go" which I found kind of boring and forced, actually. If I recall correctly, he kills someone early on in season one. It was a leap I found hard to take -- one minute he's grading student papers, next minute he's killing people.
                            Except he didn't. The person he killed tried to kill him - Walter acted in self-defence. Which is what he does throughout the entire show. Being naive he went into business with 8-Ball (and he wasn't a death dealer - meth doesn't kill by default, just like heroin doesn't) and thought 9-Ball would honour the agreement that Walter would make it and 8-Ball would distribute it. Instead 8-Ball tried to screw him over and then threatened not only Walter's life but that of his family. He tied 8-Ball up and tried to talk sense into him but 8-Ball made it clear he would kill Walter if he got out and so Walter had no choice. So no, despite what you say, Walter did not turn into a sociopath (ever, let alone in the space of a few episodes).

                            By all means, dislike the show but at least understand what's going on before you write it off.


                            Maybe that's the lesson: if we're writing "bad" protags aim to keep their choices and goals rooted in reality in a way that the audience can see the protag as "real" and intriguing and possibly even likable.
                            They did
                            Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 06-24-2020, 12:44 PM.
                            M.A.G.A.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                              Huh? I simply can't be human if I can't empathize with Walter White? Whoa.
                              Yes.


                              And aren't you contradicting yourself when your first comment in the thread was:
                              No.
                              M.A.G.A.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Protags: Likable? Relatable? Empathetic? Or is intriguing enough?

                                Originally posted by finalact4 View Post
                                So, let me see if I have this right. Because I might not agree with you, I'm somehow wrong? Because I didn't like Breaking Bad?
                                I didn't say that.


                                people have opinions based on their lives and experiences which may be different than yours.
                                And from what you said, those opinions are based on the effect on those close to you but what I'm talking about goes beyond any one character, so swap out Walter White (drugs) for Tony Soprano (loads of stuff beyond drugs) if you prefer. The point is that these shows show a side of these we never normally get to see, their human side, which is why most empathise and side with them. And that if YOU choose to judge the by their 'day job' and how YOU were personally affected then you're electing to miss the point, to overlook all that you see on screen because of the way you were affected by the world they operate in. And I get it, I really do, but IMO it doesn't change the fact that you're still overlooking what's presented to you on screen.


                                You can try to explain your position until you're blue in the face, but that is the bottom line.
                                I explained how it is just the once.


                                No hard feelings.
                                Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't, no hard feelings either way.
                                M.A.G.A.

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