Which book should I get?

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  • Which book should I get?

    I'd like to know which book would be best for helping me structure a plot I can carry out for 120 pages. Is Screenplay by Syd Field good? Because despite the praise for it I've heard, nobody here has mentioned it.

  • #2
    Field's book is good. Also <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> Story<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> by McKee. For a different aproach, and some entertaining reading, I would suggest <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> Which Lie Did I Tell?<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> by William Goldman. This book is filled with anecdotes about the screenwriting business, but also has plenty of advice for writing a screenplay, including a complete script that is analyzed by some experts.

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    • #3
      As artists we are not the product of someone else's book! We are more likely found to be parts of a number of other's books of instruction: a page here, an idea there, but never one book. - We are the product of a library.

      â€One Book?â€?

      Killiam Tierney
      [email protected]

      Comment


      • #4
        I see a plot as the collision of a character and a situation. At the risk of sounding pompous repeating this, I'm an award-winning novelist, so I guess I plot "real good." I always start with a clear idea of the main character. Then I stick him/her in a situation and ask myself, what would this person do in that situation? From that grows plot. Other people develop plot other ways, but that's what works for me.

        I've read two excellent books on plot and one stinker.
        I HIGHLY recommend:
        1) *Building Better Plots* by Robert Kernen.
        and
        2) "20 Master Plots (And How to Build Them)* by Ronald B. Tobias

        I do NOT recommend:
        *Plot* by Ansel Dibell (sorry Ansel)

        Comment


        • #5
          CanadianCruiser - - -

          Question, please:
          When you asked about plot and 120 pages - - - Was you question 'Generic?' - - - any and all stories or, 'Specific?' - - - As in, about a story which you want to 'shrink' to 120 pages?

          To me, the question 'sounds like' you have a 'story, script, novel, whatever' in your hands. Story, to me, is about a character, not about a plot.

          If so, then wouldn't your question be more about <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> editing<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> than about plot?

          Plot is third - in my view: I begin with my characters and their story, first and second. Somewhere in that story is a plot - <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> which emerges, post hoc!<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->. I did not (do not) diagram a plot first and stick characters on it like using a blueprint and from <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> that<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> begin to write a novel. (That's my impression of T.V. - not my venue.) Some very successful script writers of feature films talk about similar processes: bio of their characters first. (Some actors write (invent!) biographies about the character they portray - in order to give their character dimension.)

          To me, words like <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> structure<!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->, during the creative process - not the editing process - are dangerous to the creative artist. (In the end, it is the creative artist who will always be seen by the audience. Sadly, the 'editor' - a key player in either ink or film media - remains invisible t the audience.)

          Regards,

          Killiam Tierney
          [email protected]

          Comment


          • #6
            Writers create in different ways. Indeed, some do create characters first and allow a story to evolve. However, others dream up a dramamtic situation, a plot, a story, and find an interesting character to put in it.

            I have worked with many writers who have conceived
            scripts (and very successful ones at that) in both
            fashions.

            Mr. Tierney should consider writing a book on his "plot, smlot!" theory.

            Comment


            • #7
              - KT &amp; 'Plot Smlot' Theorey - 166 words

              - 166 words -

              [Monday - 08142001 - 1930 Pacific Time -

              - - - Please note: I've added <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> underline and bold to some words below <!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> - which 'might' clarify my ambiguities. I've also just added some *comments between astericks* to my original statement. - - -

              ======== =========== =========

              Mr. ICMEXEC - Thanks for the encouragement -

              <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Plot Smlot! - Counterclockwise<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> is actually into its <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> editing phase<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> and might be ready for release early next year (2002).

              - - -

              I owe you thanks for your <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Free Speech<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> advocacy in an earlier post: Thanks!

              ---

              I come from a <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> writing bias<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> which <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> favors<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> A.<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> character first, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> B.<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> story second and <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> C.<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> plot, last - <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> during original creation<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->.

              I do not follow <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> (what seems to be)<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> your bias: formulaic screen story preferences.

              <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> My bias<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> comes comes from experiences 25-30 years ago - as a <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> film exec<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> - <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> (possibly)<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> - similar to yours - but has different results.

              Info is in my bio.

              - - -

              Pitch sessions [*which I've experienced years ago*] - - - <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> seemed to be<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->: - - - plot or character [driven]. Not both, not inclusive [*in the same pitch session*].

              ---

              For [*the creative concept*] writer? It's about that fork in the road. A decision - go in one direction - not both at the same time. The creative, original screenwriter has to decide 'what they are' and skip 'who they are.' - Right now, for me, I am a character based novel writer and screenwriter. [ *next outing? I <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> could be<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> a plot driven writer - I doubt it.* ]

              <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> I might be wrong on this<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END-->, but I don't think a successful creative screenwriter can flip-flop from character writing to plot writing, back and forth. It's about a style. Style creates reputations - what you are, not who you are. {Killiam is a fiction-drama-novelist; now, first time, doing an adaptation of one of his novels - He's a feature, dramatic genre screenwriter; not a sit-com TV writer. - etc. -} Styles build credits. [*Credits, not jobs! - Credits for the creative writer - like me, one who does not seek 'jobs!' -

              (***I readily agree that I lose sight of the 'employee' - the 'contract' writer: to me, they are scribes who fill in the blanks for a boss. They do not create. - ( Don't go ballistic - I didn't say they are not creative.) How difficult is that to understand? There is NO one-size-fits-all-writer description . . . . None!***)

              ---

              We all count - one at a time.

              We can (should!) all be willing to disagree on issues and merit, not be bound by protective-allegiances. -

              (Then, do lunch.)

              Regards,

              Comment


              • #8
                Mr. Tierney,

                I'm all for freedom of speech! Even if I don't agree with someone's point.

                Don't forget that many projects - in this town - are generated in the heads of producers. Writers are brought
                in to pen the screenplay.

                Most writers DO NOT make a living selling spec scripts. Most
                writers make a living developing other people's ideas or rewriting other writers' scripts.

                If a writer wants to develop (for $$) his own idea, he must pitch it to someone who can remunerate him.

                Often, execs will not relate to a "character." Even if you pitch a great character (like Jack Nicholson's in AS GOOD AS IT GETS), a producer would still want to know what the story surrounding this character would be.

                It's the least a writer can offer a producer who is about to shell out a half a million dollars.

                An exception may be if the character is a famous person - but even then the celebrity (like Don King) immediately conjures up story possibilities because he is a figure most people are familiar with.

                As for your theory on "structure" - if you are conceving your
                project DRAMATICALLY - then you are considering structure -
                even if you're not doing it consciously.

                When I read scripts, I rarely know how a writer has created
                his work. In other words, I don't know if he conceived the character first or the story. Ultimately, it isn't important to
                me. I'm concerned with reading a script that is dramatic and
                moves me. How the writer succeeds at this - is his secret.

                I do not agree with your "fork in the road" diatribe - stating a scribe must chose the kind of writer he is. Artists constantly reinvent themselves. One may write a character-driven piece today and an action-driven piece tomorrow.

                If Michelangelo stuck to stone we'd never having the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

                A screenwriter may begin with a character OR a story. Who's to say what's better? As long as it gets the job done.

                On a personal note, I don't agree that I have "formuliac screen story preference", and I'm not quite clear how you have come to that assumption. I certainly subscribe to a particular kind of dramaturgy. However, I have an affinity for all sorts of storytelling.

                Comment


                • #9
                  off topic

                  (posted twice)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    off topic

                    Killiam, do you read Tom Peters?

                    I ask because I just noticed that your writing style is similar to that of his more recent books. (I'm a fan.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: off topic KT &amp; Tom Peters

                      USERNAME -


                      Very much so! I'm a devotee! I often re-read his 'Passion for Excellence' ( -1988- ) - percolates in my brain, for days!

                      (Tom Peter's writings have always been rather consistent - Not sure what you mean by 'recent' writings. - - - Thomas J. Peters is not Tom Peters; I don't think they're related (not absolutley sure) but, they have collaborated in later years. )

                      I'm 72, so my own passion for excellence precedes Tom Peters by a few years. The greatest influence in my life, out side of my grandfather, was W. Edwards Deming - who also inspired Tom Peters.

                      Professor Deming â€-convertedâ€TM US peace-time manufacturing into the WWII armaments machine. Post WWII, US biz refused Deming's theory about â€-qualityâ€TM and he remained â€-idleâ€TM - until the Japanese government hired him. The world knows the results, US does too - now!

                      Some people have a passion for a paycheck. That's OK for them; I've never been able to do that.

                      Thanks for that association - "Killiam Tierney & the writings of Tom Peters." (Bet Tom Peters would be pleased, too.) Thatâ€TMs worth more than the stuff on my mantle!

                      Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: icmexec - Perhaps you were tired . . .

                        Presuming the best of you, perhaps you were tired, or rushed servcing clients, and didn't have the time to really understand that to which I alluded - - -

                        So, I <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> underlined and emboldened<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> some words in my post above - which were conditional terms, which 'de-emphasized' what followed, or, changed what followed;

                        For example:
                        I said -
                        <!--EZCODE CENTER START-->
                        I do not follow <!--EZCODE UNDERLINE START--><!--EZCODE BOLD START--> (what seems to be)<!--EZCODE BOLD END--><!--EZCODE UNDERLINE END--> your bias:
                        formulaic screen story preferences.
                        <!--EZCODE CENTER END-->

                        That doesn't comport to:

                        <!--EZCODE CENTER START-->
                        "YOU ARE A FORMULAIC-SCREEN-STORY-ZEALOT!"
                        <!--EZCODE CENTER END-->

                        Does it? I said 'seems to be' . . . . doesn't that mean, 'I got the impression - could be wrong - not a definitive, postitive statement? - Seems to me it does!

                        How about doing an edit, on your own behalf. Some might get the impression that post 'flamming me' isn't very executive-like.

                        Diatribe? We have different dictionaries. Mine sez - - - diatribe; A bitter abusive denunciation?

                        I wasn't denouncing! I was proponing. Try again. I'll wait. I think you were tired. (Or something . . . .)

                        Regards,

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Mr. Tierney,

                          I was quite alert when I carefully choose my words, and I
                          stand behind them.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ICMEX - &quot;I carefully choose my words - - -&quot; -You'r

                            <!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Mr. Tierney,

                            I was quite alert when I carefully choose my words, and I
                            stand behind them.

                            <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

                            ICMEXEC -
                            Before I make any comment Mr. Anonymous, self proclaimed executive at ICM, - is there is nothing in that message you posted on (8/14/01 4:59:39 pm) on the DoneDeal-Books&Magazines in a reply to my post which began by thanking you for a comment in a previous post of yours- nothing at all you would like to edit?

                            I'll wait.

                            Regards,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: ICMEX - &quot;I carefully choose my words - - -&quot; -Y

                              Pardon my (bad) manners for not thanking you for your "thank you" that started off the 8/14 post.

                              Although I enjoy your posts very much, I did not agree with
                              some of your comments in the particular post and wanted to voice my opinion.

                              Like your posts, most of my comments are merely an opinion.
                              Hence, I stand by words.

                              Comment

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