What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

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  • #46
    Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

    Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
    This thread is starting to sound like all those endless threads about character-driven vs. plot driven stories with the few voices in the wilderness constantly trying to make clear that in any properly written script there really isn't any difference between the two.
    This is my what I find so frustrating about this forum (remember the "angle on" thread?). For years the screenwriting landscape has been obscured by myth and uncertainty, with thread after thread discussing the various ideaologies in perpetuity. Then we get DD and real life pros lifting up the curtain and showing us how it really works. Hallelujah!

    Yet the same people, looking for answers and a way out of the Maze of Uncertainty continue their endless threads and "ah, but..." replies, meandering round and round the maze. It's as if they don't want the definitive answers they claim to seek; that they get off on fogging things up rather than clearing the mist; that they rather focus on irrelevancies (including honorable mentions for page length, big budget vs low budget, and "we see") rather than the deeper, more nuanced qualities of screenwriting - the shit that actually elevates your writing!

    Three pros have spoken and all sang from the same hymn sheet yet there are still those on the outside looking in, disregarding (even arguing). And their response to this will be "ah, but that's just 3 writers. Who's to say another 3 wouldn't disagree?". Are they just so accustomed to a lack of direction from anyone in the know? Are they just scared that straight answers gives them nowhere to hide when their work never makes the grade? My money's on the latter.
    Last edited by SundownInRetreat; 04-24-2013, 08:59 AM.
    M.A.G.A.

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    • #47
      Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      However, since I'm always one to get stuck on defining terms, I'm still wondering what the OP means by plain writing? Is he/she only talking about prose in action lines? I'm not sure.

      For example, if someone uses the "plain writing" approach, how does this impact dialogue? It would be great if the OP gave an example.
      Yes, the OP should clarify what he meant.

      IMHO, writing is everything that appears on the screenplay's pages, including style, voice, structure, dialogue, plot, action within scenes, action sequences, character development, etc.

      Story is what the screenplay is about and what the protag's goal is. There are many ways to write the story. There are many ways to express the same story.

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      • #48
        Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

        Originally posted by ducky1288 View Post
        I think story since screenwriting is a blueprint for film -- theoretically.

        You can construct words and be as prose as you want but at the end of the day, your words don't show up on the screen in movies -- Yes, technically your words build an image, scenes, sequences but those few great lines or descriptions you thought of won't.

        I always feel like people can learn to write better or more descriptive or whatever it is that wow people with writing. Trying to nail all the components of a good story around a great idea isn't easy.
        Ducky, I think some of your words do show up on screen. If the writing is more than just style and voice, more than how you put your words together, if writing includes dialogue and the content of action lines, then those elements of the writing show up on screen.

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        • #49
          Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

          You could look at this from the opposite direction. Does a previously successful writer become a bad or plain writer when he can't sell his latest script? Sometimes the industry shifts and styles become stale or out of favor, but I don't think anybody would say the successful writer who can't sell a script suddenly writes "plainly."

          To me, that's the proof that concept is and always will be king.

          But if you really want to be taken seriously as a writer, no matter what medium you're participating in, a very strong motivator should be earning the respect of your peers. That can only be achieved through learning how to write with quality.
          On Twitter @DeadManSkipping

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          • #50
            Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

            Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
            If you want to make a living as a writer, you have to be able to write.
            Well, that bites!

            (At least I have amateur brain surgery to fall back on.)
            "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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            • #51
              Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

              Originally posted by ducky1288 View Post
              I think story since screenwriting is a blueprint for film -- theoretically.

              You can construct words and be as prose as you want but at the end of the day, your words don't show up on the screen in movies -- Yes, technically your words build an image, scenes, sequences but those few great lines or descriptions you thought of won't.
              As someone who has seen his words onscreen more than once, I disagree with this premise. In very big ways your words show up as the pictures and action you tired to paint and as the dialogue you wrote. There is nothing more satisfying or exciting than to see a scene you wrote played out the way you wanted it to and to have it work... only sex is better... and that's only marginally.

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              • #52
                Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                Originally posted by nmstevens View Post
                This thread, that seems finally to come down to high concept vs. high quality writing is starting to sound like all those endless threads about character-driven vs. plot driven stories with the few voices in the wilderness constantly trying to make clear that in any properly written script there really isn't any difference between the two.

                The day of the "idea man" -- if it ever existed -- is past. If you want to make a living as a writer, you have to be able to write. NMS
                -- NMS, my posts always seem to get you riled up. I don't know why. Everybody said, including myself, that both elements are important. That if you want to be a screenwriter you have to be able to write.

                I was presented with a hypothetical question, one being: "Terrific idea with plain writing.- "Plain- to me meant: lacking, boring, homely, simple, weak, soft, etc.

                Since I just seen all these adjectives used in written feedback of my last script from my reviewers, I certainly didn't want to choose "plain writing.- So, I choose "terrific writing- in this hypothetical scenario.

                I didn't get from the other posts by the DD members that this was about "what was more important: Terrific idea vs. terrific writing.-

                I believe the majority realize to sustain a successful career you need to be great in both of those areas.

                I, and I assume the other members, took the OP's post for what it was: A hypothetical about if you were handicapped in your writing ability and could only choose one of the two to be great at, which one would it be.

                This doesn't mean we are gonna focus our writing on one element more than the other. It was just a hypothetical.

                Yes, when you send queries off to the industry people, the concept is KING. The concept will get your foot in the door, but we all realize once we get through that door our writing has to deliver.

                I appreciate your passion for trying to stop others and I from going down the wrong screenwriting road, but in this matter, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

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                • #53
                  Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                  Originally posted by EdFury View Post
                  As someone who has seen his words onscreen more than once, I disagree with this premise. In very big ways your words show up as the pictures and action you tired to paint and as the dialogue you wrote. There is nothing more satisfying or exciting than to see a scene you wrote played out the way you wanted it to and to have it work... only sex is better... and that's only marginally.
                  I mean literally. No one posts the words you wrote onto the screen. There are a thousand ways to describe the sea... some are way more efficient and can conjure the same image.

                  I just say this because I see people spend time on how they word things and while the vocabulary and description is impressive, the story sometimes sucks.
                  Quack.

                  Writer on a cable drama.

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                  • #54
                    Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                    If style of writing was irrelevant I would be doomed.
                    Chicks Who Script podcast

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                    • #55
                      Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                      Originally posted by ducky1288 View Post
                      I mean literally. No one posts the words you wrote onto the screen. There are a thousand ways to describe the sea... some are way more efficient and can conjure the same image.

                      I just say this because I see people spend time on how they word things and while the vocabulary and description is impressive, the story sometimes sucks.
                      Of course your WORDS don't literally appear on screen. Nobody expects that to happen. That doesn't mean that the words you choose to put into your script aren't incredibly important to paint the visual pictures you want the reader, and hopefully, a director to see and then use and then transfer to the screen. And the way you choose to describe the something like the sea does make a difference. You want a reader to read your words and see your story and setting in their head like the film you mean it to be. That takes skill, lots of practice, and work. That doesn't mean flowery prose. I'm from the school of "say it well in the least words possible" and it's worked for me.

                      As I said before, I've seen my carefully chosen words on the screen as visuals and dialogue exactly the way I pictured them... not in every scene, because film is a director's medium and they going to see what you wrote from their point of view... but when it intersects with yours... it spine-tinglingly great.

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                      • #56
                        Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                        There seems to be a disconnect here about what constitutes "writing." Some appear to be taking the term to mean "narrative choices" and some seem to be taking it to mean "style." Is the question about flashy prose versus bare-bones or is it about sub-par storytelling?

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                        • #57
                          Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                          Originally posted by Joe Unidos View Post
                          There seems to be a disconnect here about what constitutes "writing." Some appear to be taking the term to mean "narrative choices" and some seem to be taking it to mean "style." Is the question about flashy prose versus bare-bones or is it about sub-par storytelling?
                          Yeah, it's a tricky subject.

                          I actually think we're dealing with 3 things here: concept, writing (aka language) & story choices.

                          I think everyone gets what concept is. This is the thing that makes ppl want to pick up your script & read it.

                          "Writing" is sentence & word choice. Action & dialogue. This keeps the reader reading.

                          "Story choice" is just that-- the choices you make in the progression of your story... where the story goes & ends up. This pretty much determines whether the reader ends up satisfied with your story, IMO.

                          I've noticed that it's easiest to pick out these 3 elements after I've read a script written by a pro writer that doesn't quite work. The concept will be cool-sounding, the scene writing & the dialogue will be entertaining (or at least interesting) enough to keep me reading. But when I get to the end I have the feeling that the writer(s) messed up somewhere... the writer made the wrong story choices. The ending was a let down or the choices were boring or the writer went on some weird tangent...

                          Unlike an amateur script that can have a whole host of problems, a pro script's biggest problem is usually a story problem. This is why I always say "story" is the hardest thing to get right.

                          But I agree that the writing/language part & the story choices part get wrapped up together in something called STORYTELLING.

                          "Trust your stuff." -- Dave Righetti, Pitching Coach

                          ( Formerly "stvnlra" )

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                          • #58
                            Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                            C.

                            - Bill
                            Free Script Tips:
                            http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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                            • #59
                              Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                              You're all wrong! It's a numbers game, plain and simple.

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                              • #60
                                Re: What do you think is more important: story, or quality of writing?

                                Originally posted by Richmond Weems View Post
                                You're all wrong! It's a numbers game, plain and simple.
                                I think you're right, Richmond.

                                A traveler walks into a bar and orders a drink. A man in a group next to him calls out "Eighty-seven," and his friends all laugh. Another in the group calls out "Twenty-four," and again they all laugh. The traveler leans over to the man nearest him and asks, "Why are they laughing at numbers?" The man replies, "We already know the jokes so just give them numbers to make it easier telling them." The traveler thinks this is crazy and asks, "Can I join in?" The man says "Sure, go ahead." The traveler calls out "Thirty-nine," but nobody laughs. He clears his throat and tries again: "Forty-seven." Again, no reaction at all. He sheepishly asks the guy why they didn't laugh and he says "It's the way you tell them."

                                My point is that while I think story always trumps style in screenwriting, that's only true up to a point. When the OP used the term "plain" I took it to mean simple, clean, non-flowery writing and I can think of many successful scripts that have been written without any flourish of style. But creating a successful career will make many demands on the writer including story-telling skill, distinctive writing and a voice, and being someone that other people can work with. As with most of these questions built around a false dichotomy it's never one or the other.
                                "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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