Question for people who don't outline

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: Question for people who don't outline

    Originally posted by Ravenlocks View Post
    You know, that may be true. I believe I've seen statistics indicating that it is. But I don't understand why so many outliners seem to disdain people who don't outline. Outlining is not a religion. It's a method. It either works for you or it doesn't. There's no right or wrong.

    I'm not calling you out in particular, just noting an attitude I've noticed.
    No offense taken. We're all free to disagree.
    I don't disdain anyone. I just think newbie writers are always looking for the easiest path.
    Outlining requires a lot of work. As others noted in this thread, it is vastly harder than actually writing the script.

    But if someone has made it and they don't outline, good for them.
    If someone hasn't sold anything and they don't outline, there's always the chance they are doing it the wrong way.

    Just an opinion.

    I know when I started I did not outline. Trying to do a serious one was a mental hurdle.
    Too much work. "I'll figure it out when I write". Then, no story direction. And the writing sucks.

    Some people are exceptions. But then, everyone always thinks they are the exception.
    I doubt that's the case for many.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Question for people who don't outline

      "Proper" outlines = bleh. Not my style. It tends to give me flashbacks to school when teachers forced you to outline so you fit their mold of organization. I'm quite chaotic with my writing but it works. I'll make notes here and there when ideas or scenes hit me and I want to remember specifics, but that's it. The overall story and direction I just keep in the noggin. To me personally I feel like time spent on an outline is wasted time that I could be actually writing. I just write, and it somehow just works out in aligning with proper screenplay story structure in the end, so I guess there is indeed a method to my madness. And it ain't broke don't fix it, so I'm happy with my crazy.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Question for people who don't outline

        Originally posted by Ravenlocks View Post
        This is why I think new writers should try out every method under the sun. It's the only way for them to discover the best process for them.
        Can't argue with this. I started off not outlining. Then i went to "notes." Then I went to the famous "outlining as i go" which means just plotting out a little bit ahead as I write.

        So, yeah, I gotta agree with you. A writer should do what works for them. BUT! A writer should also adjust their process if it's NOT working. And one way to tell if your process is not working is by looking in the mirror and asking, 'am I working?' Cuz if you're not, then maybe it's time to switch up.

        I change it up all the time. Sometimes I outline in excruciating detail, sometimes I don't. But there's always a reason why. Usually a character driven piece requires less time outlining because it's driven by a singular force (the main character) who is in every scene.

        Anyway, in the end, if someone is happy with their work and happy with their career they should do what got them there. Even if it's wrong!

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Question for people who don't outline

          Originally posted by hscope View Post
          Whether outliners sell more than non-outliners is an irrelevant and pointless argument. Who really gives a #$@&!
          I thought I'd highlight this.

          Also, let me add this for everyone...when you start working for studios, they will often demand an outline.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Question for people who don't outline

            Btw, Raven, I didn't mean you specifically in post 48. That wasn't meant to be snarky or directed at anyone in particular.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Question for people who don't outline

              Originally posted by hscope View Post
              Whether outliners sell more than non-outliners is an irrelevant and pointless argument. Who really gives a #$@&!
              People who want to sell?

              As bd0 points out, you've got to be able to outline if you're a working writer, because the studios and/or producers will often want to see one. And if you want to pitch (whether originals or for assignments), you've got to be able to outline because a pitch is a verbal outline.

              So considering that outlining is one of the most necessary skills that a working writer has to have...

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Question for people who don't outline

                Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                And if you want to pitch (whether originals or for assignments), you've got to be able to outline because a pitch is a verbal outline.
                I forgot about this.

                A) Pitching originals requires an outline as lowell says because they want the entire movie...especially these days.

                B) And pitching on rewrites requires an outline because if you're not an A-Lister you are undoubtedly being hired to page-1 a script so you wind up right back at A).

                Again, I do believe that if you're in the indie market you can just write what you write and not outline if you don't need to outline, but what Jeff pretty much illuminates is...

                ...you will not be working at studios if you can't outline and outlining is a skill that takes years to get good at. One of the things that seperates someone like Jeff from someone like me is that I am not able to distill a story to what the inevitable "movie" of it will be as quickly as Jeff. Although I get better with each project. Cutting past the fat, the diversions, the pot-holes and getting to the "movie" that is buried within any given story is what happens in outlines or in rewrites after you've been fired.

                There may be a handful of "pros" who are able to do this work without outlining but that's a handful out of thousands. And some of the handful are lying.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Question for people who don't outline

                  Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                  ...you will not be working at studios if you can't outline and outlining is a skill that takes years to get good at. One of the things that seperates someone like Jeff from someone like me is that I am not able to distill a story to what the inevitable "movie" of it will be as quickly as Jeff. Although I get better with each project. Cutting past the fat, the diversions, the pot-holes and getting to the "movie" that is buried within any given story is what happens in outlines or in rewrites after you've been fired.
                  So true - especially the last sentence, which is the response to any resistance to outlining. My outline method is screwy, I know I have to start getting better at it. I can't rationalize skipping this step.

                  At the moment I'm working on a sort of treatment -- I find writing the broad-stroke story in expository form helps, from this I'll break it down into a proper outline.

                  A question to the non-outliners: do you write character bios?
                  Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Question for people who don't outline

                    Lots of useful info in this thread, and some good reasons for me to work harder on my outlining. Thanks!
                    Patrick Sweeney

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Question for people who don't outline

                      Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                      People who want to sell?

                      As bd0 points out, you've got to be able to outline if you're a working writer, because the studios and/or producers will often want to see one. And if you want to pitch (whether originals or for assignments), you've got to be able to outline because a pitch is a verbal outline.

                      So considering that outlining is one of the most necessary skills that a working writer has to have...
                      My point, which I obviously should have outlined before committing to print, was not a comment on whether or not anyone should outline. It was about vague, meaningless and pompous statements which effectively say, 'more people do this, so it must be right,' which often pepper this board.

                      Of course most people outline; of course most people don't just start writing a script without an idea; of course producers may ask for an outline or treatment. In my opinion, it's ridiculous to think otherwise. But people also have their own versions of outlining that do not conform to someone else's rigid thought patterns.

                      And I'm sure others don't outline at all. Good luck to them, too. The beauty of writing is that you can do anything you want in any way you like and find your own path to where you're going. Or not.
                      TimeStorm & Blurred Vision Book info & blog: https://stormingtime.com//

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Question for people who don't outline

                        Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                        Btw, Raven, I didn't mean you specifically in post 48. That wasn't meant to be snarky or directed at anyone in particular.
                        No problem. You're completely right. If a writer's process is not working, it's time to try a new process.
                        "Your intuition knows what to write, so get out of the way.-
                        ― Ray Bradbury

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Question for people who don't outline

                          Originally posted by gravitas View Post
                          Part of what makes up a successful story is structure. So an outline will help in that regard. You can write great dialog, great characters, great set-pieces, and if you have no structure, you're screwed. That is the purpose of outlines and why the majority of working screenwriters use them.
                          Who said anything about *not* having structure? If your story doesn't have structure, it's not a story. It's the process of arriving at that structure that differs. Some people work it out in their head and pretty much write it all from there. Others work out their story by first sitting down and making an outline. I couldn't do that -- seems too mechanical. If you can work that way, fine, it's most likely the more efficient way to go.
                          STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Question for people who don't outline

                            Originally posted by Why One View Post
                            I can't outline an entire story. I usually get ideas for plot elements, scenes and characters, but can't get beyond them until I actually write them out. Only then can I move on. For me, writing the thing out plays a big part in the discovery process.
                            Yep -- that's how it works out for me. I'm sure it would be different if I was writing a screenplay based on a novel or true story -- but at this point I've never done that.
                            STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Question for people who don't outline

                              Originally posted by BattleDolphinZero View Post
                              I'd argue that an overwhelming majority of people who don't outline are embarking on a path that won't allow them to discover if they're good writers.
                              It goes both ways. A new writer can often be constrained by attempting to "fit" their creative writing into a too strictly set structure. The writing often becomes dull and mechanical -- even in cases where the writer may have true talent.

                              The problem is, there are so many variables. If you're writing a spec script -- which I would think (but I don't know) would include most of the writers here, then whatever works. And, "whatever works" means whatever gets you a good, solid, finished *structured* screenplay. If you're in the business (I'm definitely not) or have a partner, or are writing on assignment, or are basing your screenplay on a true story, then it would be difficult -- if not impossible -- to write without an outline.

                              But if you don't know where you're going -- what's the advantage of sitting down and trying to outline? To me at the start, it's the time to work things out in your head -- write snippets of dialogue or a few scenes and start getting a "feel" for the story. Outlining is for the later mechanical process... the "coordinating" of story elements to make the whole. For me, outlining is more a part of the rewriting, or polishing, not the part of the creative process. And again, before I sit down and write anything, I already know the ending, and all the main points of the story.

                              But whatever works.
                              Last edited by Centos; 03-20-2010, 11:21 PM.
                              STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Question for people who don't outline

                                Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                                People who want to sell?

                                As bd0 points out, you've got to be able to outline if you're a working writer, because the studios and/or producers will often want to see one. And if you want to pitch (whether originals or for assignments), you've got to be able to outline because a pitch is a verbal outline.

                                So considering that outlining is one of the most necessary skills that a working writer has to have...
                                But for those of us who aren't in the business (and probably never will be) -- a studio asking for one of our outlines (or even a spec script for that matter) is so far off the charts that's it's not even a blip on the horizon. I'm guessing that most pros don't write much that isn't assigned. And I'm pretty sure that they pitch from outlines or treatments -- not from finished scripts -- so this is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. If I -- as a nobody -- am going to sell, it's going to be because someone, somewhere, read my spec script and liked it enough to tell someone else about it. It won't matter what process produced that spec script, what will matter is the finished "product."
                                STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I'm a wannabe, take whatever I write with a huge grain of salt.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X