Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

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  • #16
    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

    For years I've tried to figure out writer's "voice". (I know the pros will probably giggle their brains out -- because it's probably always been obvious to them.)

    But I'm self-taught, a product of the idiot American public school system that never taught grammar. Essentially I fake it. I've been writing fiction since I was around six, and reading fiction, so just by brute force, I learned to put a couple of words together.

    When I started messing around with screenplays, twenty years ago, I already had a "voice". (Even though I didn't know it at the time.) Then I started reading books by the paint by number gurus and lost it.

    Most of these guru book writers have good ideas, but unfortunately they go from good ideas to dogmatic decrees. I think almost all these gurus dissect a screenplay from a finished product and make broad assumptions about how it was created. And then, even worse, they make the leap to include how "ALL other screenplays" were created.

    One simple formula in a shoe box that also includes a shoe horn is all you need. (Maybe they should include at least two shoehorns, because to make every script fit in one formula means you're going to use that shoehorn a lot.) A one-size-fits-all formula is a brain corrosive to the creative process.

    It's like deciding all screenplays should be cats. So when a perfectly good screenplay is a dog -- some of the formula spewers think you need to surgically screw with that perfectly good dog and make a Frankenstein freak that's supposed to resemble a cat. You end up with a f*cked up dog and nothing close to a cat.

    Maybe specific formulas work for non-fiction, like technical writing. I don't know, I'm not a technical writer. But fiction is not a creature that's supposed to be caged, neutered, lobotomized and conformed with specific do-s and don't-s. If you're already, painfully aware of that, then congrats -- you're not infected with formula-itus.

    Back to "voice". Don't ask me to give you a dictionary description of writer's voice in twenty-five words or less. I don't know if I can do it. But I know for awhile, I lost my voice and now I got it back.

    Maybe the easiest way to describe it is: It's the confidence to write fiction that's not boring as hell.

    I could be wrong about that, but it's a lot more fun to write when you have a voice.
    "I just couldn't live in a world without me."

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    • #17
      Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

      Cyfress: Really, I posted it because the forums are dead compared to how they used to be and no one had posted anything new in the screenwriting forum in sometime. Just trying to get an active discussion going.
      I think you succeeded! Actually, I approve of your intention. We really need to be more active.

      Storywriter: For years I've tried to figure out writer's "voice". (I know the pros will probably giggle their brains out -- because it's probably always been obvious to them.)
      Maybe some professionals have figured it out, at least to their own satisfaction. I certainly cannot give a short and reliable definition. I think that the term can mean a lot of things. For me it is basically a stand-in term for a great range of things, like "this is my slant on life; this is my implied attitude when I create characters and actions; these are the things that I regard as worthy subjects and themes in my writing; I think you can always depend on my interests and my attitudes making at least some cameo appearances in my writing; this is my focus, the things that I see and select in all the hurly-burly out there; this is the kind of language that I use, whether polished, complex, and erudite, or simple and blunt."

      And, even then, your voice might not be entirely consistent from work to work.

      "The fact that you have seen professionals write poorly is no reason for you to imitate them." - ComicBent.

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      • #18
        Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

        Originally posted by StoryWriter View Post
        Maybe the easiest way to describe it is: It's the confidence to write fiction that's not boring as hell.
        "Confidence" is the exact word I would use. Some people can tell a story and hold the room's attention. Those people have voice.

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        • #19
          Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

          You have to remember Jeff, I'm talking about scripts that meander, fail to make a point, and have scenes that go on forever. Why is it bad advice for those writers to find some defining moments for their main? Why is that so bad? It's not a must do, or a have to do, but when their script needs a ton of work, it's not a bad idea to sit back and think about what kind of archetype their hero is and then think up what kind of troubling/surprising/ecstatic moments that kind of character may have. It will certainly make the script more readable than it is currently.

          So even though you thought nothing about specific structural labels/benchmarks when writing, your scripts still have them. That's the way the majority of the movie going audience understands story.

          I recently rented the movie Ghost Story because someone here raved about it. I wanted to like it, but it was God awful. There was a six minute scene where the Ghost watches Rooney Mara eat a bowl of food. Literally six minutes. That's six pages of script. How would that even work on the page? The script had no big moments. No big turns. It was missing all the structural elements you see in studio films and the move was horrible, and it had star power with Mara and Casey Affleck. The movie bombed at the box office I'm sure and it will bomb on Demabd and on the streaming networks.

          I remember reading an interview with Francis Ford Coppola once and he said you have to be able to turn the critic inside you off and allow yourself the freedom to write the story inside of you. He felt it was impossible to write good material with your critic turned on. But after the words are on the page, then it's time to stand back and take that hard analytic look at what have. It's during that time, I'd recommend taking a look at what your structure has to offer and figure out what it is missing, what doesn't work, and what works well.

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          • #20
            Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

            The questions I think about when I tackle a project are:

            1. What is the main character's journey?
            2. Who/what are the obstacles that impede that journey?
            3. Why should the audience care about 1 and 2?

            All other things like structure, twists, act breaks, etc. should be in service of these three things. As you work out these 3 questions in script or outline stage, you will find that all the other stuff slot into place.

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            • #21
              Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

              A Ghost Story was made for 100,000 dollars, and made 2 million in limited release. It's at 90% on RottenTomatoes, and Metacritic gives it "universal acclaim."

              20 critics put it on the Top 10 movies of the year, including Rolling Stone, The New Yorker, Vanity Fair and The Hollywood Reporter.

              It's a critical and financial success, and if the writer had sent it to you for notes, you would have completely trashed it.

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              • #22
                Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                So, when you are on step 1. Expand on the heros journey. What exactly is your thought process? Let's say you are writing a script about a divorce attorney that himself is a chronic divorcee. This is a film about him meeting the one who is a new client of his. You are on step 1, trying to figure out how their relationship will work. Obviously, you know you need some big moments. This relationship will have its ups and downs and they will be scenes that depict so. At this point what are you thinking about? What does 'the journey' mean to you?

                I agree that you should be finding yourself discovering ways to use storylines, imagery, and characters that seem to be off on a tangent and not really connected to the plot in a substantial way. The best moments are when you uncover opportunity for it to come into play later.

                I think we can agree that in the relationships that are the fibric of your screenplay, there are big moments. Character defining moments.

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                • #23
                  Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                  It was so great they kept it in limited release, I guess. It's not a commercial movie. If it was so great, it would have been opened wide, unless they were worried about making too much money. It was made for 100k cause Mara and Affleck worked for free probably. If they had to pay actors. The film would have lost money.

                  I don't care what critics say when a film is good or bad. I know I watched a guy in a sheet watch Roony Mara eat a bowl a food for six minutes. Next time you read a scene that goes for six minutes and has nothing to do with anything, you make sure to tell the writer all about this great artistic scene from a movie no one saw.

                  I'm all for art and being artistic, but if a piece doesn't connect with me then it just doesn't. I've liked and disliked movies that scored high and low on RT, so again you are trying to make me look inept cause I didn't like a movie that critics raved about. I'm up for some friendly competition. We both can read a DD'ers script and give them notes without them knowing whose notes are whose and let them rate them 1 - 10. And you're a sold writer, you made reference to staffing very shows and reading 150 scripts. I'm none of those things. Up to you...

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                  • #24
                    Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                    Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                    ... Next time you read a scene that goes for six minutes and has nothing to do with anything...
                    You're assuming that David Lowery wrote six pages for that scene. He is also the director. If I had to bet, I'd say that scene in the script was barely a page, but I haven't seen the movie or the script yet. I have the screener, but have been busy. Just because there's a rule of thumb that 1 minute = 1 page, doesn't always hold up especially when trying to determine the screenplay from the movie. I'm reminded of the sequence in Gone With The Wind where Atlanta is on fire. It's a couple of minutes of screen time as I recall, but in the script it was a single sentence paragraph: Atlanta Burns.

                    A corollary to this is when critics or others slam a screenwriter for things in a movie that the writer had no control over, usually because the director didn't want the writer on set and changed things, or the things that the critic didn't care for were also things the credited writer didn't care for either, but she/he was rewritten.
                    Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

                    -Steve Trautmann
                    3rd & Fairfax: The WGAW Podcast

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                    • #25
                      Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                      Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                      I don't care what critics say when a film is good or bad.
                      We both can read a DD'ers script and give them notes without them knowing whose notes are whose and let them rate them 1 - 10.


                      I'm afraid I don't have time to give notes on a random screenplay. If you'd like a sample of my (and some other professional writers) critiquing ability, I'd suggest checking out the "Script Pages Feedback - Advanced" section of this forum.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                        Kitchona, I was being a little facetious. Obviously that scene could not last Sid pages,how could it last more than a sentence? But I wonder if there is notation in the script that denotes how long the scene is. This was one of those movies where the writer had, had, had to be the director. I can't imagine it will be nominated for any awards this season.

                        Jeff, hey I understand. You dont blame me for the challenge I hope. I feel like from your first post on this thread I felt like all you really wanted to do was discredit me, you kept going low and I kept going high. But hey, I only read people for a living, what do I know?

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                        • #27
                          Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                          But hey, I only read people for a living, what do I know?
                          Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                          I can literally say this for everything I've read in the last twelve months (13 scripts, 7 TV pilots).
                          I hope you're charging a lot!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                            And because I can't help myself...

                            Originally posted by Cyfress View Post
                            I can't imagine it will be nominated for any awards this season.
                            Nominated for seventeen awards so far, won ten of them. Obviously most of these are smaller competitions because the big award noms haven't been announced yet.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                              Not read like read scripts, read as in decipher the true intentions of someone masking their behavior.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Things I see over and over in amateur writing...

                                Do me!

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