Questions to ponder about why you're doing this...

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  • #31
    Re: Validation

    I think it's funny when people ask, "Should I write the idea that I love, or the one I don't like but think is commercial?" Come on. You can't think your way into spec sell. If you're writing something you don't love, it'll show through on every page.

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    • #32
      Re: Validation

      David Mamet has an article in the UK paper The Guardian today that touches on this a little bit. I don't know if it's reprinted from another publication you might already have seen, but here's the link:

      film.guardian.co.uk/mamet...39,00.html

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      • #33
        Re: Validation

        I don't think it's that funny when an inexperienced writer asks a serious question about how best to break into the industry.

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        • #34
          Re: Validation

          I don't think it's funny either. Not at all.

          And what answer would satisfy said inexperienced writer? What if he/she got two lengthy, well-thought-out answers by professionals, and they contradicted one another? And I mean "night and day" contradicted. It happens here. A lot.

          Not to pick on you, bottomlesscup, but a few days ago, you asked about whether or not you should write something "safe", rather than what you normally write. What would prompt you to ask that? What would make you think that anybody you'd want to work with is looking for "safe"? Or would be looking for something that you don't normally write? Why wouldn't you instead do some research on agents, filmmakers and screenwriters who worked with the type of material you write and try to see if you can get in touch with them?

          How do you think you're going to "break in" to the industry? What are your goals for when you do? Short-term and long-term? Do you think it's going to get easier after you do, to sell the stuff you like to write? Do you want to be sought after for your writing ability and voice? Do you just want that big spec sale you read about in the trades on occasion (there were many, many more about seven years ago)?

          I'm not asking this stuff to be mean-spirited or put you on the spot. I'm really wondering how you approach this, on a day-to-day basis.

          I'll give you a hint about my approach:

          I write the types of movies I love to watch. Those that I really, REALLY love to watch. I mean, I love all sorts of movies, but there are a few movies that knock me out. And some genres that I can't get enough of. That's what I go for, but in my own way. I write movies that I someday want to see on screen. Movies that I keep playing over and over in my head. I don't think about "the market" or making my work more "reader friendly". From what I can remember, nobody ever recommended that I do that. Ever.

          I write what interests me. What gets me excited. What makes me laugh. Sometimes, often, maybe always, I bare my soul in my work. Occasionally, I'll bare my ass. I have an odd sense of humor, and it shows up on the page. I would never squelch any of that in the name of "trying to make a sale". I don't think I have to. Nobody whose opinion I've ever trusted has told me I should.

          Do I ever have doubts about this approach or about my own writing? Of course. I'm human. But in the end I keep coming back to it because I know it's the right course. I know the best bet is to listen to the voice inside of me, rather than all of the contradictory voices outside of me. Of course, sometimes the voices inside contradict one another, but I digress...

          But yeah. That's my take.

          /shrug

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          • #35
            Re: Validation

            No, there's nothing funny about that, bottomless. But that's not what we're talking about here.

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            • #36
              Re: Validation

              Tony, this burst of logic and lucidity from you is totally out of hand and uncalled for.

              Don't let it happen again.

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              • #37
                Re: Validation

                I know you arenâ€TMt picking on me or making fun of me. Your sincerity was clear.

                I was asking for advice, thatâ€TMs all. Not permission. I take everything I see here with a critical mind. Not critical of the poster, but critical of what they say. I threw a question - a valid one, I think â€" out to the group to see what they thought. Then I listened to the responses that resonated with me. It doesnâ€TMt mean Iâ€TMm going to follow their advice to the letter, it just means I wanted to know what other people think.

                I live 2000 miles from LA. Iâ€TMve never been in a â€meeting†and I donâ€TMt know anyone who has, except for people on this board. I donâ€TMt know what gets you in the door. I donâ€TMt know what to expect when I get in the door. I think this message board was designed for people to share answers to these questions. Bad answers and good answers. Itâ€TMs up to the reader to know the difference.

                As for â€safe†movies, I donâ€TMt think my question was as naïve as you make it out to be. Certainly, certain genres and stories are easier to sell. A look at the TV Guide or the multiplex can show you that. Certainly, people get paid every day to write movies they donâ€TMt love.

                Conventional wisdom, from every source I can find, seems to be that Hollywood likes â€safe.†They try to copy past successes. They stick with what they know. Wouldnâ€TMt that mean a challenging, expensive spec is not likely to get sold? I donâ€TMt know. Thatâ€TMs why Iâ€TMm asking.

                With regards to my aspirations and plans in the film world, here it is, in full honesty:

                I know that Iâ€TMm a writer. Always have been and always will be. Regardless of what my occupation may be, Iâ€TMll continue to write. Writing yields me certain emotional dividends I canâ€TMt seem to find elsewhere. Even when I donâ€TMt show the finished work to anyone, I love writing.

                However, Iâ€TMm a furniture mover. Before that, I was a cook. I work long, hard hours in a rough, demeaning business. I hate it.

                At some point in my life, Iâ€TMd like to get paid to do what I love. That means writing. So, Iâ€TMm trying to form a good, solid plan for breaking into the industry and getting paid for my words and ideas, instead of my back.

                I understand writerâ€TMs concerns about art vs. commerce and I believe them. But I also know that I can write what I love in my free time. Iâ€TMve been doing it for years now. Iâ€TMm more concerned about what Iâ€TMm doing during the day. Iâ€TMd rather write anything than move couches, even if itâ€TMs not my dream project.

                I fully understand that breaking in may take a lifetime. Thatâ€TMs okay with me. Iâ€TMm not looking for a get-rich-quick scheme. I donâ€TMt need to be a marquee writer. I just want to be able to spend my life doing what I love.

                Iâ€TMm trying to reach that goal in the smartest way possible and I was asking for some advice on how to do that.

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                • #38
                  Re: Validation

                  Very cool, bottomlesscup. I appreciate your response.

                  Dclary -

                  It won't happen again.

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                  • #39
                    The Way I See It

                    There are two reasons two write:

                    1) To express yourself

                    2) To get others to listen to you.

                    If you write primarily to express yourself, then go at it however you like and the devil take whoever reads you or ignores you. If they like your writing, fine. If they don't, it's no skin off your behind.

                    If, however, you write to get others to listen to you (which includes such incentives as getting paid and having your stuff produced), then you have entered into a contest of wills. You must craft your message in such a way that it will be received as intended. You may even have to alter the message so that it will be received at all.

                    At what point will the changes you have to make be too much, so that it is no longer your message? How hard are you willing to work to craft it so that it will be received? Only you have the answer to these.

                    Ask yourself why you are writing.

                    And be prepared to adjust your expectations accordingly.

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                    • #40
                      Good question Tony

                      I think it's a validation question. I don't know why anyone cares or why it matters that 'blanket' browsers on a message board care about your intent? I guess it depends on what you deem as 'advice that matters' and what your scope and timeframe are. Too many think what's said on here is important enough to respond to every pinch to their skin. The only thing that matters is that you develop a method that works for you and it fits into your timeframe... who cares about some windbag beating their chest. Why spend time defending your vantage point to some no name in another zip code.

                      Write for whatever reason that compels you and find no fault in the recipe of others. Be judged by your own goals, not the perception of others goals for you. And stop caring about other people's hype.

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                      • #41
                        writing

                        I think, for me, I don't write like with the "big picture" in mind. I just wanna write a cool, fun movie. And I mean a damn good one that's riveting and engrossing.

                        And once you realize that you wanna do that - you have practical matters. A good opening. That has payoffs. But the most important thing, to me, is a the second act - it's so important to a good movie. I can imagine a good beginning, and a good ending - but I think the second act is where a screenplay makes its money. Terry Rossio - a real pro - said he can get by in the second act on craft, but the ending is tougher - I'm not like that (tho I wish I could write like him). I usually have the beginning and ending in mind when I get the idea for a movie.

                        But I need a second act. And a good one. I need my protag in trouble - and I need a setting, and a villain that says - HOLY CRAP. I really think that what makes great movies is the second act, but what sells them is beginnings and endings. I think I can write decent beginnings and endings, but I need to work on my second act skills. I write about this as a purely practical matter, as I'm fiddling over two second acts at the moment. It's particularly the second half of the second half that can fail -

                        anyhoo, the thing is, for me writing screenplays is not some magical vocation, in a way. It's quite mechanical, it needs a certain objective determination - there's an idea, but then you need to make it a movie. And you always are thinking: is this a movie?

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                        • #42
                          Re: writing

                          I feel ya bottomless...from another writer, who hates the paying job, and is 2000 miles away from the action. Hell I have to explain to most people I meet what a screenplay is.

                          On the issue of writing, I think some questions are asked to gain a level of validation from peers, some are asked becuase the writer really has no clue, and some are merely just to take part in the Done Deal club.

                          I would like to say I was/am a Done Deal child. Until this year I did not post a lot, but I have always lurked in the shadows, taking notes...yes I said taking notes. In doing this I have grown (I think) as a writer, it did not create my voice, but aided in helping me to bring that voice out in proper form.
                          I still don't get the three hole, but only two brad thing.

                          I believe strongly that if you have passion for what you are writing it will show. That is not to say, that a writer couldn't write just for sale...I just know I would have to have some sort interest in story, or I couldn't do it.

                          just my 2c

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                          • #43
                            Re: writing

                            I honestly have no idea what a good idea is. I'm taking a class right now, and was shitscared to tell them my idea. I hate pitching, and I think it boils down to the fear that my ideas aren't very good.

                            So, I pitched my idea to the class very very badly. They asked a whole lotta questions, and finally we were able to discern what the base idea was.

                            I was certain that I couldn't pitch it well because it was a bad idea. After class a girl came up to me and said "Hey, I'm really sorry, but I kind of hate you." I was a little taken aback. She clarified, "Your idea is fabulous and I hate that I didn't think of it first." I got a couple of emails from people in the class, later in the week, where they told me they thought my idea was great. They were still thinking about it days later.

                            Wow. Validation. On one of my ideas. I was over the moon.

                            That's the only reason I can come up with on why people would ask such questions. Validation feels fabulous.

                            Now, granted, that was a class setting, and I would never post something like what you're asking on a message board. Somehow, validation from complete strangers doesn't appeal.

                            To what you didn't ask, I've posted pages on DD to get ideas on if my stuff was working. Coincidentally, some of the best advice I got from TonyRob.

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                            • #44
                              Re: writing

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                              • #45
                                the challenge. the everyday struggle between you and something complicated. the idea that you can create characters from nothing and make them do and say what ever the hell it is you want to say.

                                the main problem with people is that they have no ability to get outside of who they are; people who can't think in layers, who don't understand the idea behind motives of characters who are not neccesarily you.

                                writing is independence from the mundane. writing is a jail that you don't want to be releashed from.

                                i write because other people should at least experience what it is like to think like me. it's the selfish part of all of us and we should all just come to grips with that fact.

                                vig

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