12 Years a Slave

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  • #31
    Re: 12 Years a Slave

    Originally posted by mgwriter View Post

    The transatlantic slavery that took place in the u.s. (And other places) that is depicted in the movie, is unique in that it sought to take human beings and make them into something less than human. The desire of one group of humans to strip another group of humans of their humanity requires a certain amount of psychosis, or mental and spiritual illness on the part of the group in power attempting to dehumanize the other.

    .
    I liked your entire post but snipped this part to discuss the idea American Slavery was the first that was a consistently profitable form of commerce that extended to overseas trade. All of the products slaves produced were big trade items shipped to other countries. Profits overruled morality and human rights.

    In my opinion, American slave owners are a few clicks below the apparel manufacturers who had no problem with children working in third-world factories for pennies per 12-hour day, seven days a week, to make running shoes. For them, profits also overruled morality and human rights.

    Although there was a crackdown on child labor once these companies were disgraced in the press in the mid 90s, it still goes on. Even in China where many of our goods are made.

    Let's take Apple as one example. As recently as this year, Apple found out that child labor is still being used in its supply chain. http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-labour-supply

    Although they apparently did the right thing in this situation, their main factories are still exploiting cheap labor for $1.50 per hour. Here's a link to pictures of Chinese workers in an iPhone factory who live in dormitories on the factory grounds: http://www.businessinsider.com/pictu...ctories-2013-7

    Here's a written description of the schedule for these same workers and it seems to me their bosses do "own" them in many ways:
    http://www.fastcompany.com/3014988/a...factory-worker

    Here's a link to the top 10 worst countries using child labor. Note the text mentions China ranks 20th on this list: " ... Despite its fast-growing economy, China has witnessed a substantial increase in child labor risks over the past year, ranking 20th compared with 53rd a year earlier. The report said that unofficial estimates suggested that 100,000 children are employed in the country's manufacturing sector.... http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/15/world/...or-index-2014/

    Link to 15 products that involve child labor: http://viewmixed.com/15-products-tha...ild-labor/1730

    I really hope everyone takes the time to read these links. Yes -- US slavery was horrible. And the societal issues it created extended through the centuries. I am in no way minimizing this fact.

    However, the practice of profits trumping morality and human rights is still at play today. And you and I and everyone in western society who buys these goods is involved. But we don't think about it when we use our iPhones. The same way those who used the goods made from slave labor didn't think about it, 200+ years ago.

    We can rail against inhumanity of pre-civil war slave owners and we can rail against evil corps who exploit cheap labor. But let's keep in mind the end users were and are average people like you and I. And 200+ years ago they did something about it. But, now ...?
    Last edited by sc111; 11-10-2013, 09:41 AM.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • #32
      Re: 12 Years a Slave

      For them, profits also overruled morality and human rights.
      And it's never ended. In this country or any other. Though there's still no comparison, the profits made from US slavery and indentured servitude (Irish, Chinese, Mexican, and Native American to name a few) continue to roll in along with today's tragedies.
      "I ask every producer I meet if they need TV specs they say yeah. They all want a 40 inch display that's 1080p and 120Hz. So, I quit my job at the West Hollywood Best Buy."
      - Screenwriting Friend

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      • #33
        Re: 12 Years a Slave

        Originally posted by roscoegino View Post
        And it's never ended. In this country or any other. The profits made from US slavery and indentured servitude (Irish, Chinese, Mexican, and Native American to name a few) continue to roll in along with today's version.
        I didn't want to go on and on but there's "forced labor" (code for indentured labor/slavery) going on today. Here's a link describing where and how it goes on in India:
        http://ijm.org/category/user-tags/forced-labor-slavery

        ETA: There's also a lot of slavery linked to human trafficking which is not only about sex:

        http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...o-tell/260586/
        Last edited by sc111; 11-10-2013, 10:16 AM.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: 12 Years a Slave

          It was good, of course.

          But I found it somewhat less compelling than I expected it to be. The storytelling was quite straightforward, almost by the numbers.

          In quite a few places, the dialogue amounted to speech-making. Also, the speaking style was rather formalized. I found that almost charming in True Grit (remake), but here it quickly sounded artificial, especially when characters were speechifying.

          Amusing, to me, was Paul Dano's casting in yet another role as a snotty, ultimately craven and simpering misfit.

          Still, the movie gives you a lot to think about--from man's inhumanity to man, to pondering one's own action if captured and put to slave labor, to the unspeakably outrageous violation of one man's rights and

          (end-credits spoiler)




          the complete failure of the judicial system to punish anyone.


          On another note, I don't agree with this diagnosis:

          Originally posted by mgwriter View Post
          ...attempting to strip other humans of their humanity is not natural and it takes certain a certain psychosis, or lack of humanity on one's own part to do that...
          I think the institution of slavery at any time in history was, and is, as "natural" a human behavior as any other. Culture and ethos determine what any given society will tolerate. Attributing "inhuman" behavor to mass psychosis fails, in my view, to recognize that many humans in any given society are capable of any behavior if they believe the behavior is acceptable in their society, or is unlikely to be punished. The Zimbardo prison experiment shows what can happen even among "modern," presumably non-psychotic people. Or Abu Graib. Such tendencies are not uncommon or even especially deviant, imo.
          Last edited by Donreel; 11-10-2013, 09:35 PM. Reason: typo

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          • #35
            Re: 12 Years a Slave

            Originally posted by Donreel View Post
            Amusing, to me, was Paul Dano's casting in yet another role as a snotty, ultimately craven and simpering misfit.
            I know. When I saw that I just imagined them when they were casting, "Hmm we need a wimpy white guy who can sound really pathetic while getting a beating.... I know just the guy!"

            Hah I googled his name and the first article that came up is called "Paul Dano's Puncheable Face." : http://badassdigest.com/2013/10/21/p...unchable-face/

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            • #36
              Re: 12 Years a Slave

              mgwriter hit this thread spot on. Ever heard of Derby's dose? Go ahead. Google it.

              Anyone who says transatlantic slavery was just modus operandi in terms of human servitude really hasn't done their homework. I like the parallels that sc111 brought up. You're right my dear, and it's a total f*cking shame. When you don't hold corporations accountable, anything goes...

              I really liked the film. It's not a good film in the sense that I want to watch it again. But it's powerful and I think these movies need to be made.

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              • #37
                Re: 12 Years a Slave

                Just saw it a couple of nights ago. Really powerful. This is the stuff Oscar contenders are made of, not plot deprived movies like Fruitvale Station (though I wish Coogler all the best in achieving the highest platform).

                [SPOILERS]

                There are two scenes that stuck with me:

                1) the hanging that elapsed a few hours.

                2) whipping Patsy until her back was a bloody stew.

                Not an easy film to digest, by any means. It was more hardcore than Rosewood, though I do agree with an above poster: there were times where speech was theatre-like, rather than naturalistic.

                8.5/10
                FADE IN:
                PERSEVERANCE OVERCOMES ADVERSITY
                NEVER FADE OUT.

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                • #38
                  Re: 12 Years a Slave

                  Originally posted by Donreel View Post
                  I think the institution of slavery at any time in history was, and is, as "natural" a human behavior as any other. Culture and ethos determine what any given society will tolerate. Attributing "inhuman" behavor to mass psychosis fails, in my view, to recognize that many humans in any given society are capable of any behavior if they believe the behavior is acceptable in their society, or is unlikely to be punished. The Zimbardo prison experiment shows what can happen even among "modern," presumably non-psychotic people. Or Abu Graib. Such tendencies are not uncommon or even especially deviant, imo.
                  Yes. Ignorance and social arrogance helped facilitate slavery, but I'm not sure there was anything pathological about those attitudes.

                  I agree that - sadly - its origins are in the nature of humankind; humans are very opportunistic animals who can easily shift their attitudes and belief systems and behavior to suit their needs at any particular time. Even today there are parallels to slavery in the industrial sweatshops of Asia and while those conditions don't approach the brutality and inhumanity of the period in question, it's anthropologically interesting that we still manage to classify groups of people as being in some way lesser human beings, deserving of fewer rights, to suit our 'needs'. It's more a question of scale and severity.

                  Unbelievably, the Australian aborigines were classified as 'flora and fauna' until the 1970s. The good thing about movies like this is that they encourage us to think about what we have done in the past and to undergo a certain amount of self-examination. It may not change many attitudes, but it gives voice to a worthy goal. It's a harsh movie, but an important one.
                  "Friends make the worst enemies." Frank Underwood

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                  • #39
                    Re: 12 Years a Slave

                    Best movie of 2013, hands down. It should take best film, best director, best actor in a leading role, best actor in a supporting role and best actress in a supporting role at the Oscars.

                    Dallas Buyers Club was okay, The Wolf of Wall Street was very good at times but flawed overall. American Hustle...I don't even understand how it's nominated, other than some good performances.

                    12 Years a Slave is the movie against which all the other contenders have to be measured. And they fall short.

                    It's funny, though, how many of the most acclaimed films from 2013 were based on real stories and took a narrative approach closer to that of a biopic instead of a stronger dramatic structure.

                    That would be my only complaint about 12 Years, that the story isn't very strong on its own, but I find all the other aspects more than made up for it.

                    I guess it's also questionable whether the imagery needed to be so crude and graphic or the film could have taken an elliptic approach. It came dangerously close to the exhibitionism of torture porn. It didn't cross that line for me, but it may be different with other viewers.

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                    • #40
                      Re: 12 Years a Slave

                      Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
                      That would be my only complaint about 12 Years, that the story isn't very strong on its own,
                      I agree 100%. and that's why I've felt no need to watch it again.

                      Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
                      I guess it's also questionable whether the imagery needed to be so crude and graphic or the film could have taken an elliptic approach. It came dangerously close to the exhibitionism of torture porn. It didn't cross that line for me, but it may be different with other viewers.
                      my man... it's almost disrespectful to NOT portray slavery for the brutality that it was.

                      12 Years is actually quite light compared to what really happened. That's the f*cked-up part.

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                      • #41
                        Re: 12 Years a Slave

                        So, on that same logic, the only honest way to make a film about child abuse is to include very graphic scenes where children are raped? That's not something I'd want to watch.

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                        • #42
                          Re: 12 Years a Slave

                          Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
                          So, on that same logic, the only honest way to make a film about child abuse is to include very graphic scenes where children are raped? That's not something I'd want to watch.
                          Child abuse and slavery are very different things. But yeah... you have to get graphic. Otherwise, you're just sugarcoating the reality. and why would you sugarcoat it, if that's the underlying premise of the movie: 'to show a story about triumph over abuse'.

                          I understand that people don't want to watch that and yes it goes into 'snuff' territory. I respect it. But at same time, in the words of a friend of mine who went through lots of abuse:

                          'you're complaining about sitting in a theater for 2 hours to see a real and necessary story? But then u get to go home. Whereas I have to live with that for the rest of my life. Spare me your displeasure and grow a pair.'

                          Movies like 12 Years operate on a different level. They're 'victim' movies (and I'm not saying that in a condescending way) designed for healing. And a major part of healing is to acknowledge the FULL reality.

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                          • #43
                            Re: 12 Years a Slave

                            Yes, I get what you're saying, but I think the film could have made the point more effectively using dramatic tools, through narrative, instead of its imagery. You even acknowledged you don't care to watch it again because the story isn't all that great. I will watch it again, I liked it a lot, but it's not a memorable story. I think a powerful narrative is stronger and more permanent for the viewer than shocking images.

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                            • #44
                              Re: 12 Years a Slave

                              Originally posted by Dr. Vergerus View Post
                              I think a powerful narrative is stronger and more permanent for the viewer than shocking images.
                              I agree.

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                              • #45
                                Re: 12 Years a Slave

                                Has anybody seen Solomon Northrup's Odyssey, a PBS film from 1984 directed by Gordon Parks? Some criticized it for being too beautiful and restrained--not graphic enough.

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