What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

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  • #31
    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

    Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
    Annie Hall beating Star Wars was an upset???
    Well, first of all, two things:

    1.) To each his/her own.

    2.) I was talking about movies, not screenplays... That's why I wrote "to go a little off topic"...because I wanted to discuss films instead of scripts...

    So anyway, that being said....YES GOSH DANG IT, STAR WARS IS A BETTER FILM!

    There is no way you can sit there and tell me that Annie Hall is more culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant to the world of film than the original Star Wars.

    No. Way.

    (Seriously, though, it's just one man's opinion).
    Last edited by fisherman; 09-19-2010, 04:03 PM.
    "Right now it sounds like an urban Idiocracy meets Big in The Matrix (with a dash of Tron?)." --Mountain Goat, commenting on my screenplay ZONED OUT

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    • #32
      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

      Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
      Annie Hall beating Star Wars was an upset???
      Biggest upset of all time. Star Wars defined film for an entire generation. Go anywhere in the world and ask if they know of Star Wars and you'll find heads nodding yes. Annie Hall was a quaint little comedy that 99% of adults in their mid to late 30's today have never even seen. Doesn't make it a bad movie just means there was something far, FAR more universal and impactful about Star Wars.

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      • #33
        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

        I saw Star Wars once, and loved loved loved it. I was 10 years old, and right in it's target audience.

        But it has no place in a discussion of great/award-winning films, no matter how many times George Lucas name checks Joseph Campbell.

        If you are talking about what makes an award winning script (which I thought we were) you would do well to start with Woody, who has more Oscar nominations than any other writer (and if Woody had not essentially been playing himself, Annie Hall might have become the third film in history to win all 5 top Oscars................upset, indeed).
        Last edited by kintnerboy; 09-19-2010, 04:29 PM.

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        • #34
          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

          Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
          I saw Star Wars once, and loved loved loved it. I was 10 years old, and right in it's target audience.

          But it has no place in a discussion of great/award-winning films, no matter how many times George Lucas name checks Joseph Campbell.

          If you are talking about what makes an award winning script (which I thought we were) you would do well to start with Woody, who has more Oscar nominations than any other writer.
          Watch it again. It still holds up every time I see it and I'm certainly not some fanboy geek with wookie pajamas or anything.

          Woody is an art house darling like the Coen Brothers. Reasonably good at what he does (except for turds like Cassandra's Dream or any of the British movies he's tried to make for that matter). Good for him but his films are inaccessible to the majority of audiences.

          That is one of the key criteria in terms of judging a good screenplay in my opinion. How universally relatable is the story? How easily do you get swept up in it? Star Wars hits pretty much everyone in some way. Annie Hall? Not so much.

          While it's just opinion obviously, Annie Hall does nothing for me ultimately. Maybe it's because I've seen the self-doubting Jew schtick done to death at this point and I happen to think Larry David is far better at it than Woody is.

          Just my take though...

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          • #35
            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

            I tried to watch Annie Hall, I really did, but I just wanted him to stop talking so bad I had to cut the movie off and go watch Star Wars.
            Chicks Who Script podcast

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            • #36
              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

              Originally posted by fisherman View Post

              There is no way you can sit there and tell me that Annie Hall is more culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant to the world of film than the original Star Wars.

              No. Way.

              (Seriously, though, it's just one man's opinion).
              It's not just one man's opinion.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                Okay, if accessibility and 'universally relatable' is your criteria, go get the screenplays for Avatar and Transformers and be done with it. No point messing up a thread about quality writing.

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                • #38
                  Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                  Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                  Okay, if accessibility and 'universally relatable' is your criteria, go get the screenplays for Avatar and Transformers and be done with it. No point messing up a thread about quality writing.
                  Oh now you're just being nonsensical. Those movies had nothing to do with story. They were purely about special effects. Especially transformers. I'm talking about story being accesible and relatable. No one relates to stupid ass blue sea monkeys. But they do like seeing pretty colors.

                  Don't pout because someone disagrees with your love of art house film. I'm not saying it's bad or saying you're necessarily wrong to value it - I'm saying it doesn't speak to the masses the way other movies have.

                  Use Casablanca instead of Star Wars if you must but the point remains that Woody Allen appeals to a very small portion of the population.

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                  • #39
                    Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                    Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                    It's not just one man's opinion.
                    Thanks, DB. I just didn't want to sound dogmatic.

                    Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                    Use Casablanca instead of Star Wars if you must but the point remains that Woody Allen appeals to a very small portion of the population.
                    Yeah it really is that simple.

                    Here's the thing about Star Wars though... It wasn't just another special effects movie like Avatar.

                    On the topic of special effects, George Lucas created his own company (THX) because the technology for the level of sound quality he desired did not exist otherwise.



                    *takes a deep breath*.... Do this as a quick test/illustration, Kintnerboy...

                    Turn the volume off, and WATCH Annie Hall...see how far you'll get... Probably like 10 seconds... Then pop in Star Wars... You'll be in for the viewing experience of a lifetime... As a motion picture (read: moving picture show), Star Wars (1977) triumphs Annie Hall AND Avatar for that matter... In terms of creativity and doing what movies are supposed to: suspend disbelief, transporting us into a world beyond our own...

                    Now I know I really sound like a fanboy, but I'm not. I'm an El Mariachi trilogy fanboy, but that's another story. It's just that Star Wars is a LANDMARK film in a multiplicity of ways, whereas Annie Hall really is an art house film...and not the best one, either... I mean, dang, the French had America beat on that a looooong time ago... Alain Resnais, Jean-Luc Godard, François Truffaut, Éric Rohmer, et cetera... Actually I'm pretty sure that Woody Allen's biggest directorial influences were these guys...

                    Just my two cents.
                    "Right now it sounds like an urban Idiocracy meets Big in The Matrix (with a dash of Tron?)." --Mountain Goat, commenting on my screenplay ZONED OUT

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                    • #40
                      Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                      Whoa, Woody Allen is class, make no mistake about it!
                      That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a fan, but the way his characters analyse everything - constantly make judgements and openly kick themselves - it simply is great psychology (Barry Windham).

                      Furthermore, Woody captures a certain mentality in his work which nobody has ever done better. Yes, it can be argued that he writes the same damn character in every script, but watching that same mindset is not only a joy, but has spawned numerous clones, not to mention a certain R-o-s-s Gellar... albeit, this one was nowhere near on a par.
                      Cufk, Tish, Sips.

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                      • #41
                        Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                        Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                        Oh now you're just being nonsensical. Those movies had nothing to do with story. They were purely about special effects. Especially transformers. I'm talking about story being accesible and relatable. No one relates to stupid ass blue sea monkeys. But they do like seeing pretty colors.

                        Don't pout because someone disagrees with your love of art house film. I'm not saying it's bad or saying you're necessarily wrong to value it - I'm saying it doesn't speak to the masses the way other movies have.

                        Use Casablanca instead of Star Wars if you must but the point remains that Woody Allen appeals to a very small portion of the population.
                        First of all I could care less if you like Annie Hall, or Woody Allen. Or Star Wars. The percentage of the population he appeals to means nothing, and has no place in a discussion about great films.

                        I don't have to defend the film. It's one of 7 movies in history to win 4 of the 5 top Oscars. Case closed. Star Wars also won the Oscars it deserved (SFX and costumes).

                        Back to the subject of this thread, I haven't really seen any real insights into writing here. Lots of encouraging words and empty platitudes, like "a story that gets better and better" (how, exactly, does one do that?) or "positive ideals that are humanistic" (what, exactly, are those?).

                        Vague, vague, vague. And not much help.

                        I'll give you one. Great scripts reveal basic human truths. For example, there's a scene in Shawshank Redemption where Red goes before the parole board for like the 20th time in 20 years and finally has had enough ass kissing. He says (in one of the great scenes ever):

                        "There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullsh1t word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a sh1t."

                        When the guy on the parole board stamps the form 'approved' it's not some plot contrivance, and it's not even the result that Red intended. But it's true to human nature. It shows that once you take away the thing that someone is holding over you (in this case, his hope) they are powerless. That's where wisdom comes from, if you're smart enough to recognize it.

                        So if you're writing a script, show me something about people that I don't know, or haven't seen before.

                        Or, go back to talking about how great Star Wars is. Makes no difference to me.

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                        • #42
                          Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                          Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post

                          So if you're writing a script, show me something about people that I don't know, or haven't seen before.
                          And what was that in Annie Hall? That Jewish schlubs like Woody are insecure when they outkick their coverage in terms of dating?

                          Look, while the academy awards are nice does it really mean it's the be all end all of great film making? I mean Shawshank got nominated for 7 and didn't win a single one, are you telling me that Annie Hall is somehow a better film? Clearly that's not even remotely the case.

                          If your criterion for a great script is learning something you didn't know about the human condition then Annie Hall fails that test. It didn't teach me anything I didn't know or reveal any new basic human truths.

                          Sorry.

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                          • #43
                            Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                            Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                            Great Shawshank scene.....
                            Yes, let me continue with the Shawshank love here.

                            It's one of my favorite screenplays and I think that what makes it so great is the fact that it has a very clear theme about hope - one of those universal human qualities that are meaningful. And every sequence and every main character is used to explore that theme.

                            Hell, the story is constructed to make the audience find hope for the characters, lose that hope, and regain it throughout the script. It's very explicitly stated in the VO as well.

                            So the not-so-simple simple advice: Make your film about something important and use every page to explore that.

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                            • #44
                              Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                              Originally posted by dirtbottle View Post
                              If your criterion for a great script is learning something you didn't know about the human condition then Annie Hall fails that test. It didn't teach me anything I didn't know or reveal any new basic human truths.
                              No one said that my insight into Shawshank Redemption was my 'criterion' for a great script (that's just you putting words in my mouth).

                              If you'd read the entire thread, you'd have read my other post about how great films show how things work (and show us things we'd never get to see). The film Rififi shows bank robbery based in realism (and one of the great sequences in movie history). It's probably been seen by less people than Annie Hall, because people would rather see unrealistic cops and robbers movies when the guns never run out of ammo and the good guys always win.

                              But that's not my criterion, either. It's one of about a dozen. Which I would post, but I feel like it's falling on deaf ears.


                              ps- the point of Annie Hall is that relationships are absurd and irrational and maddening and almost certainly destined to fail, but we go through them anyway, because it's all we have.

                              Not exactly profound or groundbreaking, but it sure was funny.
                              Last edited by kintnerboy; 09-20-2010, 08:04 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Re: What makes a great script? Perhaps an award winning script.

                                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                                No one said that my insight into Shawshank Redemption was my 'criterion' for a great script (that's just you putting words in my mouth).
                                Or you putting words in your post maybe if I may refresh your memory -

                                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post

                                I'll give you one. Great scripts reveal basic human truths.

                                So if you're writing a script, show me something about people that I don't know, or haven't seen before.
                                Originally posted by kintnerboy View Post
                                ps- the point of Annie Hall is that relationships are absurd and irrational and maddening and almost certainly destined to fail, but we go through them anyway, because it's all we have.

                                Not exactly profound or groundbreaking, but it sure was funny.
                                Funny to you. Unfortunately, not to me or the vast majority of people who could take or leave it.

                                Again I'm not saying your insights are wrong about what's important in a great script. I'm saying Annie Hall is not that script.

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