What to Say to Writers...?

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  • What to Say to Writers...?

    I’ve debated for some time about posting this question, but with things being a little quieter these last few days, I figured, “Why not?” (I won't note my approach right now so as not to "lead the witness" one way or the other.)

    This is something that comes to mind multiple times a year when I’m read scripts, hear/read loglines, read synopsis & treatments, etc. There is always a sense of wanting to try to help, of course -- it’s their dream, thus one tries to be encouraging.

    At the same time, it’s difficult to watch someone sort of slog away with it all, and continue to focus on ideas and completed scripts that will surely go nowhere; or maybe even worse yet, they just don’t have the skill set to be a writer and should probably focus much more on other things in life as a career. But maybe worst of all, they seem to throw away money via various services time & time again. I helped a writer a few years ago who just kept spending money on their script time & time again with the hopes of getting rated high enough to get some attention. I see others do a similar thing as that person. The writer eventually realized, on their own, that they needed to stop doing that and reassess the situation. This was only after they had been spent thousands (before me) on getting writing help and paying for services, contests, etc.

    So, the kind of philosophical question of the day is, how honest do you feel one should be on advising a writer about their next step after reading their work? Possibly after a few exchanges, even. OR do you ultimately feel your fellow writers are big boys & girls and can spend all the money they desire or can, as they see fit, because it’s not your business?

    I have my own style & approach I’ve used for years, but I thought it might be interesting to hear others’ take on whether they give more straightforward, frank advice (not ugly or mean by any means) about the situation. Or that you find “ignorance is bliss,” so why say anything?

    And please don’t simply think of this just for yourself, though please share as you like; but as much as anything, objectively about what you say to others and how strongly you feel about your personal approach to feedback & advice. Do you take a different approach for you than you do for others? (Not hypocritically, so to speak.) OR do you try to treat other writers as you would like to be treated regardless of what their chances might be?
    Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 10-06-2020, 04:22 PM. Reason: Edited to add tags.
    Will
    Done Deal Pro
    www.donedealpro.com

  • #2
    Re: What to Say to Writers...?

    I wouldn't tell someone to stop writing personally. I don't have that gene, whatever it is. But I buy the argument that it would ultimately be more helpful to them in the long run. But I think they should figure it out on their own.

    It seems that the aspiring screenwriter world is very Dunning-Kruger heavy. And everyone likes movies and everyone wants to cash a winning lottery ticket. So yeah. It's going to attract a certain type of person, disproportionately. So even if you tell them it's best to pursue other avenues, it will likely fall on deaf ears.

    I often tell folks to read X number of scripts. Be it produced or the annual Blacklist, whatever. If after doing that they don't see they have to improve...that's on them.

    I'm also a believer that some large % of making it is inherent talent that is baked in at an early age. Stephen King posits in On Writing that a bad writer can't become competent, a good one can't become great, but a competent writer can become good. I don't know if I agree with it or not, but that kinda feels right when it comes to the work necessary to become a good screenwriter.

    The biggest issues I see aside from what you mention above (the manic focus on their one script) are folks not getting the right kind of reps. They're just out there futzing around playing pickup ball and they aren't shooting 500 three pointers a day. Practicing correctly is so much more important than the arbitrary 10k hours nonsense, IMO.

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    • #3
      Re: What to Say to Writers...?

      As a teacher/ writing instructor, I don't have the ability to be quite that honest. I have encountered people like this, and try to be as constructive about it as possible. I have worked with some writers who I have advised against spending too much on services till they have something they feel warrants it.

      As far as those who don't have the talent or are at the wrong point in life, I always just try and be realistic. But I have gotten several retired/ older students in my classes who have somewhat un-realistic expectations and because they have disposable income often spend too much on services etc, even when their writing is like a novel or it's very unlikely their projects will really get any traction.

      Conversely I worked with someone who was a retired (and somewhat famous) journalist who was an amazing writer. He's now managed to get some projects going--so never say never!

      I also will add in this story--a friend from graduate school had a great script--but very quirky--and he queried a manager and they literally told him he should quit writing. He went onto sign (with same script) at a much bigger management company, and eventually sold a different script... So you never know hah!

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      • #4
        Re: What to Say to Writers...?

        I think a bit like you two in many ways.

        It's no one's place to tell someone to stop writing. They have every right to do so and if it makes them happy & they enjoy it, they should.

        I too try to direct writers towards scripts that might help guide or inspire them in some way and maybe even instruct them some on things to try to do and strive for. The work definitely has to be put in. I also do believe to there is that sort of X factor of having the talent built in and in many ways honed in the early years.

        And like you LRic, I try to be constructive and take a more teacher like approach; but not overly so as to create too high of expectations and I most certainly try to gently discourage throwing money at "things" to try to advance one's career. In some ways, that worries me the most when I see writers do that time & time again to no avail.

        Thanks for sharing, both of you.
        Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 09-29-2020, 06:21 AM.
        Will
        Done Deal Pro
        www.donedealpro.com

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        • #5
          Re: What to Say to Writers...?

          Oh, when I think back to my early writing efforts. They were so terrible and so derivative -- and I couldn't wait to send them out!

          All of the unfortunate slobs that had to read my work, though, found at least one thing to praise -- a clever phrasing, a unique perspective, a really quotable line of dialogue -- and so the rejections always came back with the note: This is not sell-able, but you should keep trying.

          It's hard to say whether I would have without those encouragements... Maybe.

          But I do know what would have happened if the notes had said: You're terrible. Please stop.

          My feelings would have been hurt for a bit, and then I would have ignored them... Most things in life have to be self-realized.

          I have learned so many things during my 10,000 hours that have made it worth the effort no matter which way it turns out -- the research I've done for projects has made me the anchor man of any bar trivia team I'm on... and figuring out which character traits make a better story hero has caused me to embrace the ones that make me a better person... I'm far more succinct in my correspondence now... and a way better typer.

          One of the most important things I've learned is that people value money and time differently. Some favor one way more than the other (I'm about par at this point in my life).

          I've seen people spend $5000 on the Blacklist, and the only thing that's taught me is that we have different value systems.

          So the answer to anyone who asks "Am I wasting my time writing?" is, probably not.

          Some people devote 10,000 hours to video games or poker or reruns of Murder She Wrote... We're all wasting our time.

          The only two things I would say to someone whose work was truly awful are

          1) Your personal obligations come first. Anyone who is struggling with bills or unemployment should put writing aside for a while. There are large gaps in my writing output where I was working 70+ hours a week to dig myself out of a hole. So be it (anyone who doesn't realize this is in for a rough road no matter what they do anyway).

          2) If you've been writing the same story for 2 years, maybe move on to something else. I'm not one of those people who favors quantity over quality, but at some point a writer has to have something else to say.

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          • #6
            Re: What to Say to Writers...?

            Mitzi Shore (ran the Comedy Store) had a sign in her office that said "It is a sin to encourage mediocre talent." I think that's true. I think there's a responsibility to be blunt. You'll be called an asshole, but at least you didn't help kill someone with encouragement, which Hollywood is famous for.

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            • #7
              Re: What to Say to Writers...?

              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
              Mitzi Shore (ran the Comedy Store) had a sign in her office that said "It is a sin to encourage mediocre talent." I think that's true. I think there's a responsibility to be blunt. You'll be called an asshole, but at least you didn't help kill someone with encouragement, which Hollywood is famous for.
              I hear ya. I try to find a bit of way to do that without being too, too Mitzi about it.

              Personally, I prefer a more straightforward response to my work. Not nasty about it, though that's never been an issue, but just tell me if you like the script or the idea, or not. Does it work? Will it work? Etc. I have people that will tell it to me straight which I appreciate and understand even if it "disappoints" for a day or so.

              And people that I know well and read scripts for & work with, I try to be pretty upfront, but without being unkind.
              Will
              Done Deal Pro
              www.donedealpro.com

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              • #8
                Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                I would just like to add, that in my 15+ years on Done Deal, I have never read another member's work (for notes), or offered to, because I am incapable of sugar-coating bad news, and I don't want to be the guy that crushes someone's dreams.

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                • #9
                  Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                  I'm of the opinion that people have to find out on their own accord. It's not up to me whether or not someone wants to write a script. What I will do is discourage them from paying for access or for script analysis, and instead encourage them to join a writers group. Maybe that helps them get better, maybe it doesn't. At least it saves their hard earned cash.

                  Now, I have told writers who I like that a particular script wasn't good. That, I think, is fair game. If it's not working on any level, I think you have a responsibility to let them know.

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                  • #10
                    Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                    I believe in radical honesty. As I've shared before, my college writing program had a mandate to graduate students who had the ability to earn a living as a writer. Many students -- a couple of them my friends -- were bounced out of the program. And the weeding out continued as we went along.

                    A good friend made it halfway through only to be transferred out yet encouraged to pursue writing as a hobby. Even as I was allowed to proceed it was clear to me I needed a Plan B (mine was a minor in secondary education). This early experience shaped my opinion that giving false hope is unfair.

                    Frankly, I think there's nothing wrong with saying a script is not up to par or a concept is likely not sellable. Or, the writer's skill set is lacking. As long as you give viable reasons why you've come to these conclusions, the writer is free to take it from there.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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                    • #11
                      Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                      I always err on the side of "they can do this." I had a friend years ago tell me I couldn't really write a screenplay. A couple years later I was a finalist at Austin and got a manager. That same guy read one of newer scripts and wrote back, "Holy ****. You can write now." (Then he wanted me to send his work to my new manager and cut me off when I wouldn't do it. Don't be that guy.)

                      No one really knows how much progress and improvement someone can make -- if they do the right sort of work and get the right feedback. I know this from my own experience. I align closely to docgonzo's approach. I don't try to predict big picture, but I will explain to someone who asks for my opinion what I think of a particular piece of work. Focusing on the work itself, not the writer.

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                      • #12
                        Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                        I tend to ask, "do you want honesty or praise?" They always say honesty when really they mean praise.

                        But honesty is what I always give. I will always preface what I unleash on them with "in my personal opinion". Because that's all anyone can really offer.

                        And if they've got the attitude and the aptitude to improve, then there's hope.

                        It's just a shame that, for most people, ego/arrogance/hubris gets in the way of any kind of self-improvement.

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                        • #13
                          Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                          Originally posted by Done Deal Pro View Post

                          they just don't have the skill set to be a writer and should probably focus much more on other things in life as a career.
                          What do you say to a writer who has been writing and studying the craft for ten years and his screenplays look like they were written by a newbie?

                          Jeff posted a quote by Mitzi Shore: "It is a sin to encourage mediocre talent."

                          As readers/reviewers, it's not our job to give false hope of success. It's also not our job to critique the writer and tell him he sucks as a writer.

                          If you decide to take on the job of reading someone's screenplay, your responsibility is to analyze the writer's screenplay and give constructive feedback in an honest, straightforward way. That's all. To give opinions on what you believe are problems and give suggestions on what you believe will give fixes, or the writer some direction in order for the writer to get his screenplay stronger with rewrites.

                          The primary reason for a person to write is because of the love of writing. Not for money. If scoring a huge payday is a writer's primary reason for writing, then there will be a lot of disappointed people.

                          So, if a person writes screenplays for the love of it, why would it be necessary for me to tell this person you suck as a writer -- please stop!

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                          • #14
                            Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                            I believe people who say they don't want to sell something like I believe all those undecided voters who are just really super concerned about the violence in our cities and Antifa.

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                            • #15
                              Re: What to Say to Writers...?

                              Originally posted by JoeNYC View Post
                              If you decide to take on the job of reading someone's screenplay, your responsibility is to analyze the writer's screenplay and give constructive feedback in an honest, straightforward way. That's all. To give opinions on what you believe are problems and give suggestions on what you believe will give fixes, or the writer some direction in order for the writer to get his screenplay stronger with rewrites.
                              Agreed for sure. If notes or coverage are done directly for a writer, then do all you can to help guide and improve their script. Now when talking to a producer or director about the material submitted, then one can be more frank about the evaluation as need be.

                              I will note to be clear, someone writing for the love of it is great; just like playing an instrument for the fun of it, enjoying sports, creating art (paintings, etc.) and so on. The quote you referenced was related to specifically someone trying to pursue a career as writer but it never seems viable or realistic for them. Plus, they are spending money and slogging away endlessly. I was just curious, simply for the sake of discussion, as to what others might say or want to hear. Again, I have my way, but thought it might be interesting to see people discuss a little.
                              Last edited by Done Deal Pro; 09-30-2020, 07:34 AM.
                              Will
                              Done Deal Pro
                              www.donedealpro.com

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