What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

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  • #61
    Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

    I'm sorry if sharing experiences, data, and analysis comes across as "complaining." That wasn't my intent.

    (And for the record, I'm quite easy to work with. I've been paid to write scripts and do rewrites and edits and give notes and I have a number of happy clients.)

    I started the thread because I thought any discussion of the large salaries that successful screenwriters make should be balanced by a discussion of the odds against making those large salaries. John and Craig touched on this but didn't go into detail.

    I went into detail, and invited discussion on whether my particular way of looking at it made sense to others.

    I confess to a nerdy interest in the psychoeconomics of screenwriting. Why do 100,000 people listen to Scriptnotes, but "only" 5,700 enter the Nicholl? Why are there hundreds of screenwriting books in print and contests in operation? Why do thousands take classes and use services like the BL?

    I assume that so many people invest time and money because most of them hope to make money -- even get rich.

    So I guess it's not surprising that people get annoyed when someone points out that the odds are that no, they won't.

    Can't we talk about that elephant in the room without getting pissy?
    "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

    Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

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    • #62
      Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

      Originally posted by LauriD View Post
      I'm sorry if sharing experiences, data, and analysis comes across as "complaining." That wasn't my intent.

      (And for the record, I'm quite easy to work with. I've been paid to write scripts and do rewrites and edits and give notes and I have a number of happy clients.)

      I started the thread because I thought any discussion of the large salaries that successful screenwriters make should be balanced by a discussion of the odds against making those large salaries. John and Craig touched on this but didn't go into detail.

      I went into detail, and invited discussion on whether my particular way of looking at it made sense to others.

      I confess to a nerdy interest in the psychoeconomics of screenwriting. Why do 100,000 people listen to Scriptnotes, but "only" 5,700 enter the Nicholl? Why are there hundreds of screenwriting books in print and contests in operation? Why do thousands take classes and use services like the BL?

      I assume that so many people invest time and money because most of them hope to make money -- even get rich.

      So I guess it's not surprising that people get annoyed when someone points out that the odds are that no, they won't.

      Can't we talk about that elephant in the room without getting pissy?

      Again, I wasn't criticizing the original intent of this thread - I said there was nothing wrong with it at all. I was just pointing out the fact that your exchanges with others almost always seem to lead to a criticism of the BL's success rate. When something is criticized often enough, I think it can safely be defined as "complaining".

      And I have no doubt that you are likely easy to work with - but was just pointing out that a pattern in responses can lead to a certain type of perception. And perception can be stronger than fact.

      While I think most people who pursue screenwriting think they can get rich and don't understand the small odds, I have a strong feeling that those who frequent the DDP boards are smarter/more savvy than that. I doubt they see it as an "elephant in the room".

      With all that said, I apologize if my posts came across as pissy. That definitely wasn't my intent. I'm actually a pretty nice guy
      "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

        Also, wasn't the point of the original Black List to highlight scripts that are really good but aren't being made any time in the near future?

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

          Originally posted by cvolante View Post
          Also, wasn't the point of the original Black List to highlight scripts that are really good but aren't being made any time in the near future?
          Yep - per Franklin: "During the almost ten years that I've worked in the film industry, there have been long periods wherein I haven't read a great screenplay. We've all had those periods.....The Black List began during one of those periods. I took a survey of my peers and asked them to send me a list of their favorite screenplays from the previous year that wouldn't be in theaters by the end of it. I aggregated the information and sent the list back to those who submitted."

          http://gointothestory.blcklst.com/20...n-leonard.html
          "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

            Originally posted by UpandComing View Post
            [COLOR=#000000][FONT=verdana, helvetica, sans-serif]I don't think pointing this out is being hypersensitive at all. I think it's being realistic.
            Saying that her recent posts on a writers forum may jeopardise her chances in the industry because they come across as complaining is ridiculous.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

              Originally posted by LauriD View Post
              Why do 100,000 people listen to Scriptnotes, but "only" 5,700 enter the Nicholl? Why are there hundreds of screenwriting books in print and contests in operation? Why do thousands take classes and use services like the BL?

              I assume that so many people invest time and money because most of them hope to make money -- even get rich.
              I think that the reason there are so few Nicholl entries compared to Scriptnotes podcast listeners... and thousands of books and seminars and podcasts and advice columns... and hundreds of contests and script analysis services... is because while there is an extraordinarily small number of good scripts compared to bad scripts, there is also an extraordinarily small number of finished scripts to prospective scripts. And by that I mean to say that there may be 100 terrible never-going-to-sell scripts for every 1 that is at least good enough quality to sell, but I would be willing to bet that for every one of those terrible scripts, there are a hundred more people who think about writing a script, dream about writing a script, maybe even start writing a script... and just never finish. And those are the people who buy the books, attend the seminars, read the advice columns, listen to the podcasts, etc. and don't have anything to enter in a contest like Nicholl, or to register with a place like the WGA. People who dream of being a screenwriter but don't even have the drive to sit down and write a bad screenplay, let alone sit down and keep writing them until they improve their writing to a professional level.

              I think it's true that people invest time and money because they hope one day screenwriting will make them money. But in much the same way that people dream of being professional athletes, the number of people who would like to be one (and might even spend a few bucks indulging in that fantasy) is significantly higher than the number of people who actually step onto the court or field and give it a shot. And there are significantly more of those people than the number of people who step onto that court or field day after day, week after week, so they can become something more than an amateur enthusiast.

              I'm not surprised at all that 100,000 people listen to Scriptnotes and that the number of listeners (or the number of people who purchase screenwriting books) far exceeds the 30,000 some-odd scripts that are registered with the WGA every year. Nor am I surprised that the number of scripts registered with the WGA every year far exceeds the number of Nicholl entries, which far exceeds the number of scripts that are optioned or secure representation, which far exceeds the number of script that are actually produced.

              Everybody wants to get rich. Some people might even invest a nominal amount of money leisurely pursuing or investigating the endeavor. But few people actually sit in the chair and crank out an entire script, and even fewer continue to sit in the chair and improve once they realize it's not a get-rich-quick business.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                Originally posted by LauriD View Post
                I'm sorry if sharing experiences, data, and analysis comes across as "complaining." That wasn't my intent.

                (And for the record, I'm quite easy to work with. I've been paid to write scripts and do rewrites and edits and give notes and I have a number of happy clients.)

                I started the thread because I thought any discussion of the large salaries that successful screenwriters make should be balanced by a discussion of the odds against making those large salaries. John and Craig touched on this but didn't go into detail.

                I went into detail, and invited discussion on whether my particular way of looking at it made sense to others.

                I confess to a nerdy interest in the psychoeconomics of screenwriting. Why do 100,000 people listen to Scriptnotes, but "only" 5,700 enter the Nicholl? Why are there hundreds of screenwriting books in print and contests in operation? Why do thousands take classes and use services like the BL?

                I assume that so many people invest time and money because most of them hope to make money -- even get rich.

                So I guess it's not surprising that people get annoyed when someone points out that the odds are that no, they won't.

                Can't we talk about that elephant in the room without getting pissy?
                I think the issue is, as you say above, you assume it's the elephant in the room for the vast majority of aspiring screenwriters when it's not.

                In my years on this site (too many, probably), I've seen MD's, lawyers, executives, professionals, and people with advanced degrees and well- paying careers elsewhere, talk about their desire to write, their love of film, their desire to see their stories on the screen. All of whom are totally aware less than 50% of working WGA writers actually work in a given calender year. All fully aware of the WGA minimum, a figure which, for these folks, would be a salary cut. Yet, still, they push on investing time and money in spite of the odds against them. Frankly, I don't even sense you, Lauri, push on in the pursuit of a big payday.

                You push on because you love screenwriting. Yet, still - still - as the merry-go-round cycles again, you have yet to grasp the golden ring.

                Frankly -- my take on this -- my take on the elephant in the room - is you're hitting that wall of frustration many of us have hit and your way to deal with it is to crunch numbers to distract from the emotional aspect of this frustration. You've had so much encouragement, so many kudos for your talent, so many contest wins, so many close calls, a Blacklist 9, yet still no one wants to lay down money for the feature films you love to write. It is frustrating. And sometimes it is wise to stop and reassess how much more time and energy you're willing to put toward it going forward.

                I feel your pain. I was there. I'm still feeling bad about how much time I could have spent with my Mom in the last two, three years of her life when, instead, I was doing rewrite after rewrite to address a now ex-manager's notes. I can still hear her voice saying to me, "Writing, always writing." And it wasn't just writing -- hours spent researching, reading articles, reading the trades, reading produced scripts. Hours I could have spent with her, my kids, the man in my life. So I did stop to reassess. And I fully admit I've cut back on the time I spend on this pursuit. I made a decision that works for me.

                I think it would be more productive if you would look at the possibility something else is brewing below your number crunching. Because, IMO, that's likely what people are sensing and why they're getting pissy.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                  Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                  I feel your pain. I was there. I'm still feeling bad about how much time I could have spent with my Mom in the last two, three years of her life when, instead, I was doing rewrite after rewrite to address a now ex-manager's notes. I can still hear her voice saying to me, "Writing, always writing." And it wasn't just writing -- hours spent researching, reading articles, reading the trades, reading produced scripts. Hours I could have spent with her, my kids, the man in my life. So I did stop to reassess. And I fully admit I've cut back on the time I spend on this pursuit. I made a decision that works for me.
                  Beautiful. Thanks for sharing this.
                  "I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.-- Peter De Vries

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                    I think with some of these hard-to-get-produced projects it reaches a point that the script becomes a writing sample or you produce it yourself or you adapt it into a novel. If you need closure, I'd do option 2 or 3 so you can move on and also feel good about what you've done.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                      She doesn't have to move on with it -- hell, someone else might want to make it in five years or something. Writing samples sometimes become trunk scripts, and trunk scripts sometimes find new life years later -- just ask Jeff

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                        Originally posted by sc111 View Post
                        I think the issue is, as you say above, you assume it's the elephant in the room for the vast majority of aspiring screenwriters when it's not.

                        In my years on this site (too many, probably), I've seen MD's, lawyers, executives, professionals, and people with advanced degrees and well- paying careers elsewhere, talk about their desire to write, their love of film, their desire to see their stories on the screen. All of whom are totally aware less than 50% of working WGA writers actually work in a given calender year. All fully aware of the WGA minimum, a figure which, for these folks, would be a salary cut. Yet, still, they push on investing time and money in spite of the odds against them. Frankly, I don't even sense you, Lauri, push on in the pursuit of a big payday.

                        You push on because you love screenwriting. Yet, still - still - as the merry-go-round cycles again, you have yet to grasp the golden ring.

                        Frankly -- my take on this -- my take on the elephant in the room - is you're hitting that wall of frustration many of us have hit and your way to deal with it is to crunch numbers to distract from the emotional aspect of this frustration. You've had so much encouragement, so many kudos for your talent, so many contest wins, so many close calls, a Blacklist 9, yet still no one wants to lay down money for the feature films you love to write. It is frustrating. And sometimes it is wise to stop and reassess how much more time and energy you're willing to put toward it going forward.

                        I feel your pain. I was there. I'm still feeling bad about how much time I could have spent with my Mom in the last two, three years of her life when, instead, I was doing rewrite after rewrite to address a now ex-manager's notes. I can still hear her voice saying to me, "Writing, always writing." And it wasn't just writing -- hours spent researching, reading articles, reading the trades, reading produced scripts. Hours I could have spent with her, my kids, the man in my life. So I did stop to reassess. And I fully admit I've cut back on the time I spend on this pursuit. I made a decision that works for me.

                        I think it would be more productive if you would look at the possibility something else is brewing below your number crunching. Because, IMO, that's likely what people are sensing and why they're getting pissy.
                        As someone in the situation you mention, I completely agree regarding motivation in my case.

                        I didn't need the money when I started writing. I still don't. But, I do it because I love doing it, and I love the feeling when first sitting down to begin that day that "anything can happen." You are creating a world which is totally up to you. How it looks, what happens in it, etc. (of course, not the case in an assignment or adaption).

                        The odds didn't matter. The idea of seeing your creation play does matter. (the person who originally got me writing and mentored me, one of those top 40 guys, says he could care less about that now--so I guess that wears off and becomes old hat after a while, near 40 years for him)

                        The only thing I regret is telling my mentor when he first mentioned I ought to write a screenplay a few years ago, "Listen, The last thing i want to do is become one of 10,000 people running around Los Angeles trying to peddle a script."

                        That turned out to be actually kind of fun too.

                        By the way, his comment on the competition aspect? "Mike, there are only a few truly good scripts going around LA at any one time, so the competition isn't really that much."
                        Last edited by mikejc; 04-27-2013, 08:11 PM. Reason: clarity

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                          Originally posted by Incognito View Post
                          Saying that her recent posts on a writers forum may jeopardise her chances in the industry because they come across as complaining is ridiculous.
                          Yeah, I was kinda hoping that execs have better things to do than hang around on DD looking for screenwriters to blacklist....

                          Do they also hand out OWAs to people who say cheerful, positive things?
                          "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

                          Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                            Originally posted by mikejc View Post
                            As someone in the situation you mention, I completely agree regarding motivation in my case.

                            I didn't need the money when I started writing. I still don't. But, I do it because I love doing it, and I love the feeling when first sitting down to begin that day that "anything can happen." You are creating a world which is totally up to you. How it looks, what happens in it, etc. (of course, not the case in an assignment or adaption).

                            The odds didn't matter. The idea of seeing your creation play does matter. (the person who originally got me writing and mentored me, one of those top 40 guys, says he could care less about that now--so I guess that wears off and becomes old hat after a while, near 40 years for him)

                            The only thing I regret is telling my mentor when he first mentioned I ought to write a screenplay a few years ago, "Listen, The last thing i want to do is become one of 10,000 people running around Los Angeles trying to peddle a script."

                            That turned out to be actually kind of fun too.

                            By the way, his comment on the competition aspect? "Mike, there are only a few truly good scripts going around LA at any one time, so the competition isn't really that much."
                            Thanks for sharing. And so cool for you to have a mentor. Especially since writing is such a solitary thing.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                              Originally posted by LauriD View Post
                              "Important" update to OP:

                              2. The universe of people who are serious about being screenwriters is probably much smaller. The most prestigious (and I believe the largest) amateur screenwriting competition is the Nicholl Fellowship competition. In 2012, the Nicholl received a record 7,197 scripts.

                              http://www.oscars.org/awards/nicholl/

                              People can enter up to 3 scripts each, and the number of entrants in 2012 was 5,781 (not 5,500). (Thanks to Greg Beal for the data.)

                              Thus, the universe is slightly bigger than believed. And the odds of a newbie selling a spec remain no better than .3%.
                              You're welcome - but I think there are two problems with including 5,781 in your calculations.

                              First, if you're counting "amateur" screenwriters who have a completed feature film screenplay, you would have to find lists for every screenwriting competition open to amateurs, compile them and then find the unique entrants. I suspect that number for a given year would be at least 20-30,000. It certainly could be higher. Compiling it with the WGAe and WGAw registrations for a given year, after first eliminating all the pros, and then finding again for the unique writers would take it up again. 30-40,000? Next, you'd have to find a way to estimate the number of amateur writers who completed a feature film screenplay this year but didn't register it and didn't enter any screenplay competitions.

                              Second, you'd have to decide what the measure of "serious" is. If one only needs to have a completed screenplay, then the count would be much higher than the prior count because it would include all the writers with "old" scripts that aren't included above. Or serious could mean registering with the WGA and entering a competition. And submitting to potential reps. And submitting to producers. Obviously, the more ands that are added, the smaller the group becomes.

                              In any case, measured only against 2012 Academy Nicholl entrants, the number has to be much higher. Measured by a stringent definition of serious, the number would be much lower.

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                              • #75
                                Re: What a successful screenwriter can expect to earn - Scriptnotes for April 23

                                SC111, thanks.

                                He was mentored by Paddy C. when he first started, so just paying it forward I guess.

                                Other than reading, notes and help with ideas, the best part was and is the perspective given. "Forget about the odds and competition, forget about, 'wouldn't it be nice to be on the set of a script of yours they're filming, forget about the bullsh#t'--just write."

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