LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

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  • #61
    Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

    Originally posted by lostfootage View Post

    Have you ever considered taking a break from discussing the odds and instead spend that time writing?
    Discussing the odds is what I do when I'm taking breaks from getting paid to write.
    "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

    Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

      Lauri: If you're getting paid to write -- which implies that this is your livelihood -- where are the links to your IMDBPro page or other links that show your credits? Posting that would greatly enhance your credibility.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

        Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
        Lauri: If you're getting paid to write -- which implies that this is your livelihood -- where are the links to your IMDBPro page or other links that show your credits? Posting that would greatly enhance your credibility.
        Where's your IMDBPro page, jtwg50?

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

          Originally posted by jtwg50 View Post
          Lauri: If you're getting paid to write -- which implies that this is your livelihood -- where are the links to your IMDBPro page or other links that show your credits? Posting that would greatly enhance your credibility.
          "Credibility"? I don't need no stinkin' credibility. How much "credibility" do you need to post a link to an LA Times article?

          I've never claimed any special expertise or that my views deserve any more weight than anyone else's. As I've said before, I've been paid to do screenwriting at non-WGA rates. I also write other stuff that I get paid for.

          And why is it anyone's business how much time ANYONE here spends writing? Should you have to present 10 new pages to a moderator before you sign on?

          Are only people with IMDB pages allowed to post?

          If you aren't interested in the odds, don't read the posts.
          "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

          Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

            Originally posted by LauriD View Post
            "Credibility"? I don't need no stinkin' credibility.
            got that reference. love it. no need to say more. people who talk about other things than the actual discussion does so because they have nothing to say, and are trying to "win" the argument by slanting the other person.

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            • #66
              Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

              What I find interesting is:

              Among the 100 highest-grossing movies at the U.S. box office in 2012, the study reported, 28.4% of speaking characters were female.

              Because that answers everything. The women in the audience have made their choices, and those choices are movies with fewer female speaking roles. This isn't 100% men making these films the 100 highest grossing movies in 2012, it was both men and women... and since women outnumber men, maybe even this is more about what *women* want to see on screen than what men want to see. "Hollywood" seems to be making the kind of movies women want to see!

              Did they look at the bottom 100 films?

              - Bill
              Free Script Tips:
              http://www.scriptsecrets.net

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              • #67
                Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                What I find interesting is:

                Among the 100 highest-grossing movies at the U.S. box office in 2012, the study reported, 28.4% of speaking characters were female.

                Because that answers everything. The women in the audience have made their choices, and those choices are movies with fewer female speaking roles. This isn't 100% men making these films the 100 highest grossing movies in 2012, it was both men and women... and since women outnumber men, maybe even this is more about what *women* want to see on screen than what men want to see. "Hollywood" seems to be making the kind of movies women want to see!

                Did they look at the bottom 100 films?

                - Bill
                This is the second time someone has mentioned "women's choices" - as if there were a plethora of films out there chock full of female characters and gosh darn us fickle gals, we head for the boy movies instead.

                At my local theater this weekend the choices are:

                The Hangover 3
                Fast & Furious 6
                After Earth
                Pain & Gain
                Iron Man 3
                Star Trek Into Darkness
                Oblivion
                Epic

                So...seven movies about guys doing stuff and a cartoon. If I pick anything but the cartoon am I actually making a "choice" to see a male-dominated film?

                What I actually WANT to see onscreen? Isn't there.

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                • #68
                  Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                  Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                  What I find interesting is:

                  Among the 100 highest-grossing movies at the U.S. box office in 2012, the study reported, 28.4% of speaking characters were female.

                  Because that answers everything. The women in the audience have made their choices, and those choices are movies with fewer female speaking roles. This isn't 100% men making these films the 100 highest grossing movies in 2012, it was both men and women... and since women outnumber men, maybe even this is more about what *women* want to see on screen than what men want to see. "Hollywood" seems to be making the kind of movies women want to see!

                  Did they look at the bottom 100 films?
                  Not at all.

                  If I gave you two drinks, a diet soda and a glass of juice, and you chose the soda, would I be justified in saying that you prefer diet drinks? Or is it that you prefer soda? No way to tell.

                  To apply this to movies, the data on this website http://www.the-numbers.com/market/2012/summary indicates that people prefer action or adventure movies to comedies and dramas. Is this because the former have fewer women, do they like them despite the dearth of women, or (most likely) due to some other factor entirely?

                  There's no way to tell. Maybe what you wanted all along was a glass of water.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                    Here are the next 20 from that year, and you might note the number of films that were wide release female-centric. #102 - ONE FOR THE MONEY is a female lead, female director, female producer, female screenwriter, based on a best selling novel by a female novelist. That was a choice... but female ticket buyers selected the "boy movies" instead.

                    101 Cloud Atlas
                    102 One For the Money
                    103 Alex Cross
                    104 Katy Perry: Part of Me
                    105 Sparkle (2012)
                    106 Premium Rush
                    107 Big Miracle
                    108 The Secret World of Arrietty
                    109 The Impossible
                    110 Haywire
                    111 Man on a Ledge
                    112 A Thousand Words
                    113 Chernobyl Diaries
                    114 The Perks of Being a Wallflower
                    115 Silent Hill: Revelation 3D
                    116 Wanderlust
                    117 Safe (2012)
                    118 To Rome with Love
                    119 The Master
                    120 The Raven

                    #109 IMPOSSIBLE didn't open wider until early this year, but got creamed by TEXAS CHAINSAW 3D and DJANGO UNCHAINED when it did. The choice was there - no one took it. The reason why those top 100 for the year were the top 100 (and these films didn't make that cut) is because ticket buyers selected them.

                    ONE FOR THE MONEY opened at #3 when it came out, with THE GREY at #1 and holdover UNDERWORLD AWAKENING at #2. It was a choice - the audience didn't select it. Good news is - UNDERWORLD is a female lead series that is still going strong.

                    The choices are there - ticket buyers are not making them.

                    - Bill
                    Free Script Tips:
                    http://www.scriptsecrets.net

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                      #102 - ONE FOR THE MONEY is a female lead, female director, female producer, female screenwriter, based on a best selling novel by a female novelist. That was a choice... but female ticket buyers selected the "boy movies" instead.

                      You can't hold this flop up as an example as if all films (boy and girl) were equal in quality and therefore it goes to prove women simply prefer boy films.

                      I've read a couple of the Stephanie Plum novels specifically for educating myself on non-traditional woman protags. I read the book this was based on -- the first of the novel series. At the time, I thought to myself, "This should be adapted for the screen."

                      When the movie was announced, I thought, "Cool." But once the trailers came out I could tell from these alone they missed the core of this character by several miles. Anyone who is a fan of the books could see it too. It's like KH based her character on Bravo's Housewives of New Jersey instead of the book's character. And that WIG!! It should have had cast credit all its own.

                      Here's a review I agree with after seeing the film and reading the book:

                      Someday to be used in film schools as a textbook example of how not to adapt a best-selling novel for the screen, One for the Money is mis-cast, mis-scripted, and mis-directed in every category.
                      So what's the message to female viewers, "Here, women straight down the line. Nevermind it's a sucky adaptation of a best seller. If you don't come out in droves to support this turkey we'll just assume you'd rather see male lead films."

                      When a guy film, written and directed by men, flops at the BO, no one assumes audiences have rejected male lead films. It's just one bad movie. One miss.

                      But when one of the precious few women lead films flops, it's somehow a reflection of the entire female market's tastes in film.
                      Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                        Originally posted by sc111 View Post

                        But when one of the precious few women lead films flops, it's somehow a reflection of the entire female market's tastes in film.
                        Amen, sister...

                        BTW, interesting discussion of the Bechdel test in the latest Scriptnotes.
                        "People who work in Hollywood are the ones who didn't quit." -- Lawrence Kasdan

                        Please visit my website and blog: www.lauridonahue.com.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                          Except, of course, One For The Money wasn't the only movie aimed at women on Bill's list.

                          All those execs greenlighting movies live and die on box office, to the exclusion of anything else. Cleaned up at the Oscars and lost money? See ya. Beause of that, they'd greenlight nothing but gay alien dingo movies if they performed (and sold toys).

                          So the thought that they're looking at the same data we're looking at and saying "oh, we could make easy billions by targeting women, but FUCK WOMEN!" is a little illogical, IMHO.

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                          • #73
                            Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                            I agree with everything that Jeff says multiple times in this thread. And I'll add two different thoughts, too.

                            As someone who majored in Economics, I know that supply will always meet demand and not the other way around. Long before Apple created iPod, iPhone, and iPad, it created the Newton that was a famous flop. They tried to create a supply of something that had NO demand. Innovations only succeed if the demand rewards it. But for the most part, the whole economy is based on suppliers catering to the customers.

                            Secondly, I know many actors, directors, and writers in the Asian-American community. They constantly complain that Hollywood is closed to Asians. The harsh truth is that these APA talent do not produce work at the incredibly high standard set by Hollywood. But it's much easier and comforting to blame the system than to look inwardly to realize that you may not be talented enough. And if any market is technically underserved, it's the Asians who comprise 60 percent of the world's population but I cannot name a single Asian actor who can open a movie (unless you count Keanu Reeves as Asian). But the truth is that movies that so obviously cater to the Asian market will not draw its intended audience.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                              Originally posted by JeffLowell View Post
                              Except, of course, One For The Money wasn't the only movie aimed at women on Bill's list.

                              All those execs greenlighting movies live and die on box office, to the exclusion of anything else. Cleaned up at the Oscars and lost money? See ya. Beause of that, they'd greenlight nothing but gay alien dingo movies if they performed (and sold toys).

                              So the thought that they're looking at the same data we're looking at and saying "oh, we could make easy billions by targeting women, but FUCK WOMEN!" is a little illogical, IMHO.
                              I don't think anyone here disagrees.

                              I think we're trying to say that "Women buy tickets to films with male protagonists more than films with female protagonists ergo they prefer films with male protagonists" is equally illogical.

                              If 90% of movies featured bananas and 10% featured apples, and I saw three banana movies and one apple movie, it doesn't necessarily mean I like banana movies three times as much. It might just there are a lot more banana movies.

                              But it's much easier and comforting to blame the system than to look inwardly to realize that you may not be talented enough.
                              There's some variation of this in every thread about under-representation in...well, anything.

                              Acknowledging the reality of a situation isn't blaming. Most of the people working in film and television are white males. That's a fact.

                              Pointing it out isn't a hostile act.

                              Dismissing any attempt to discuss gender or ethnic under-representation as "you're just blaming the system because you're not good enough" is a pretty passive-aggressive act, though.

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                              • #75
                                Re: LA Times: Where Have All the Women in Movies Gone?

                                Originally posted by bmcthomas View Post
                                I think we're trying to say that "Women buy tickets to films with male protagonists more than films with female protagonists ergo they prefer films with male protagonists" is equally illogical.
                                There's that argument again. I think it's incredibly reductive to argue that male protagonist = movie for men, female protagonist = movie for women. If that's the lens you view movies (and tv and books and music and and and) through, then I don't think your belief matches up with reality. Using my wife as a test case (and I know that it's not scientific to hold up one person, but I don't think she's alone), her favorite tv shows have almost always had male leads - Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, etc, etc, etc...

                                If 90% of movies featured bananas and 10% featured apples, and I saw three banana movies and one apple movie, it doesn't necessarily mean I like banana movies three times as much. It might just there are a lot more banana movies.
                                So you're saying that if 10% of movies were for women (under the flawed system of female protagonist = female movie, but I'm going with it), but women, who comprise more than 50% of the audience spent 25% of their dollars on movies for women... then those movies would wildly overperform and Hollywood would be churning them out.

                                If women (again, the majority of ticket buyers) were two and a half times more likely to see female protagonist movies, I promise you they would be the majority of movies released.

                                If I said what a lot of people in this thread have been saying - women are only interested in movies with a female lead - you would all be crucifying me. Rightly. "The Godfather is on. Go do something in another room while I enjoy it, because it's made for me."

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