A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

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  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

    Oh, I didn't address this:

    Originally posted by emily blake View Post
    Some women who call themselves feminists are fallible human beings, so you do not feel like calling yourself a feminist out of - I guess I shouldn't say fear, but maybe apprehension? - of being associated with them. Is that right?.
    No. It's not right. No fear. No apprehension. Just 20 years of marketing experience in the power of words that have been emotionally charged over decades.

    Use a word that the majority of people, whose minds you're trying to change, associate with negative connotations, they STOP listening to you.

    Step up to one of those proverbial white guys, with the power to change something for women, and say, "I'm a feminist and I think your company is biased against women," how far do you think it will get you? He will get defensive and he will STOP listening to you in the process. Complain publically that men "don't make me feel welcome because I'm a woman," how many men are going to volunteer to help you feel welcome.

    I am a specialist in using words to get people to buy things and use services and sell ideas. I am very good at what I do. Use words that work for you not against you.

    Now, I have friends that say I've been trained to use persuasive language into manipulating people into taking action on something they normally wouldn't. You bet I do. And I advise other women to learning how to do it too.
    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

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    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

      Originally posted by sc111 View Post
      Originally posted by emily blake View Post
      Allow me to clear up some fallacies in this.

      1) In a world where this exists: http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ my being unafraid to call myself a feminist is not the same as me saying that you are afraid to call yourself a feminist. You see how one of those things is about me and one of those things is about you? Which one did I say? The thing about me.
      Look, we'll likely get nowhere on this, you and I. But I'll give it one last shot. I went into great detail as to why I don't label myself a feminist. And your response was:
      Originally posted by emily blake View Post
      If you choose not to identify with that word, then that's your call, but for me, I am not going to be afraid to say it. I am a feminist. I believe in feminism.
      If you can not see how your choice of words could be seen as characterizing me as being "afraid" to use the term, feminist, I don't know what else to say except that's how it appeared to me.
      Forsaking the risk of gettin' my tit caught in a wringa' (as they say, in a completely asexual way, Down East, i.e., in Maine), I agree with sc111 here. Emily, I'm getting the same thing from that part of your post as she got.

      If JACK says, "I think this is a good deal", and then JOE says, "Well, I'm smart enough to know it isn't" - then, Joe is telling Jack that he (Jack) is stupid.

      Emily, you've often employed that sort of rhetorical device when you've posted on such "non-political" political topics... but then denied that what you posted means what it truly does say. Just, this time, it's someone "on your side" calling you on it.

      If you're gonna call someone out, call him/her out. And then, don't deny it.

      Any "political" label carries baggage. Just for example, with all that Putin's done lately, imagine if you meet someone today who says, "I'm Russian." Or you walk into a local Palestinian restaurant and your name is Jane Smith. Or your name is Miriam Liebowitz. Labels. Now Jane Smith may be a Christian who believes "all" of Israel is for the Jews, while Miriam Liebowitz may support the '67 borders. But unfortunately, in many contexts, many settings, labels carry such baggage, such heavy meaning, that people don't ever ask what the "labeled person" believes.

      Labels are like the items on the menu in "Five Easy Pieces", and most people in the world are like that waitress - "No substitutions."

      Now, if you (i.e., anyone) are happy with a label - despite the possible need at some point(s) to deal with the baggage that others may foist upon you because of that label... Then fine. That's your choice.

      But the fact that some people choose not to wear a label - perhaps simply to avoid dealing with other people's projections/assumptions about the "baggage" that the label suggests - then that, too, is fine. That, too, is a choice.

      Comment


      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

        Originally posted by emily blake View Post
        People absolutely should ask for help when they need it. When we started we asked several people for advice, and we got all kinds of great suggestions. We had no idea how to do the audio or to post episodes or how to maintain a website - and women were largely responsible for helping us figure all of those things out. Our web designer is an invaluable British woman named Helen Kelly who busted her butt to get it done faster than I would have thought possible. And as a result, our audience is already way bigger than we were expecting.

        And to return to the original topic, that's what this is all about. Women need to see other women succeeding and helping each other out in public. If you are told every day that your chance of success is low and there's nothing you can do about it, you're going to believe that to be true. But our hope is that if you hear stories of women trying and succeeding - and recovering from failure too, for that matter - women will be more encouraged to put themselves out there more often.

        We complained about not hearing enough women talk about making movies, so we did something about it. Is it perfect? Nope. But we're learning as we go and having a really fun time doing it.

        So the moral of the story is, don't let anyone tell you what you can't do. Who cares if you're a woman? Who cares what other women have or have not done? You want to do it, go freaking do it. If you fail - so be it. You pick yourself up and try again.
        So do you want my feedback on your podcasts or not? I'm not going to provide it if you don't think it will be useful. Essentially you're launching a brand and there is a science to doing so.
        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

        Comment


        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

          Originally posted by Manchester View Post
          Forsaking the risk of gettin' my tit caught in a wringa' (as they say, in a completely asexual way, Down East, i.e., in Maine), I agree with sc111 here. Emily, I'm getting the same thing from that part of your post as she got.

          If JACK says, "I think this is a good deal", and then JOE says, "Well, I'm smart enough to know it isn't" - then, Joe is telling Jack that he (Jack) is stupid.

          Emily, you've often employed that sort of rhetorical device when you've posted on such "non-political" political topics... but then denied that what you posted means what it truly does say. Just, this time, it's someone "on your side" calling you on it.

          If you're gonna call someone out, call him/her out. And then, don't deny it.

          Any "political" label carries baggage. Just for example, with all that Putin's done lately, imagine if you meet someone today who says, "I'm Russian." Or you walk into a local Palestinian restaurant and your name is Jane Smith. Or your name is Miriam Liebowitz. Labels. Now Jane Smith may be a Christian who believes "all" of Israel is for the Jews, while Miriam Liebowitz may support the '67 borders. But unfortunately, in many contexts, many settings, labels carry such baggage, such heavy meaning, that people don't ever ask what the "labeled person" believes.

          Labels are like the items on the menu in "Five Easy Pieces", and most people in the world are like that waitress - "No substitutions."

          Now, if you (i.e., anyone) are happy with a label - despite the possible need at some point(s) to deal with the baggage that others may foist upon you because of that label... Then fine. That's your choice.

          But the fact that some people choose not to wear a label - perhaps simply to avoid dealing with other people's projections/assumptions about the "baggage" that the label suggests - then that, too, is fine. That, too, is a choice.
          This is cool. Likely the first time I've agreed with you 100%. Of course it was easy in this case because you agreed with me. Either way, it's progress, Manchester!

          (I really need to get back to work, now.)
          Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

          Comment


          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

            Originally posted by sc111 View Post
            So do you want my feedback on your podcasts or not? I'm not going to provide it if you don't think it will be useful. Essentially you're launching a brand and there is a science to doing so.

            I apologize for implying that you had fear of being called a feminist. I suppose that comment came out of a misunderstanding of what you believe.

            Thank you for your kind offer to help, but I think we're okay on the podcast.
            Last edited by emily blake; 08-06-2014, 03:35 PM.
            Chicks Who Script podcast

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            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

              Originally posted by sc111 View Post
              This is cool. Likely the first time I've agreed with you 100%. Of course it was easy in this case because you agreed with me. Either way, it's progress, Manchester!
              Maybe I'm just a broken (analog) clock... and, as it happens, it was one of those two times of day (when I'm right).

              Comment


              • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                s.

                In a world where this exists: http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ ...
                I looked at that site. And my first thought was, "Why do these young women hold these opinions?" There are some clearly conservative views. However, I noticed more than one woman expressed they feel feminists are telling them what to do and then criticizing them for not doing it.

                So then I googled around to see how feminists responsed to this site. And the first site I found was feminist spoofing the "stupidity" of the women who expressed themselves on the "against" website. http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarr...-say-they-dont

                Now, maybe it's just me, but I would see the "against" website as an opportunity to educate the misinformed rather than an opportuity to ridicule the misinformed.

                Edited to add: Here's feminist Nina Burleigh, whose writing I usually like, also ripping into the women on the site who voiced they were against feminism. Oddly enough, her scathing analysis of the site quickly starts to sound like a conspiracy theory:

                Everything about Women Against Feminism suggests it’s a sock puppet for the aggrieved misogynists and pedophiles of the anti-feminist men’s rights crowd. The main clue is that almost all the women on the site are nubile and posed in ways that fulfill dirty old men’s wildest dreams about pliant young things.

                Read more at http://observer.com/2014/07/women-ag...#ixzz39g239KeL
                Strange that, when I read the anti-feminist comments, save for a few whacko comments, it seemed to me the women were expressing what they truly thought. But Burleigh doesn't entertain this idea until the very end of the article, and she does so begrudgingly.

                Edited to add: For fairness, here's a site where women respond by saying why they need feminism. I have to say some of the responses strike me as odd:
                http://www.bustle.com/#/articles/326...ists-look-like
                Last edited by sc111; 08-06-2014, 10:20 PM.
                Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                Comment


                • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                  sc, I'm surprised you don't identify as a feminist. From reading your other posts I gather you want to see women empowered and doing well, whether in media or life.

                  I admit I'm always somewhat shocked when a successful, outspoken woman says they're not a feminist -- and I lose some respect for her, because they're obviously enjoying the benefits of generations of hard work by feminists and then disassociating from them as well . But I also realize that some women need to distance themselves from the "angry, man-hating- stereotype or they want to avoid seeming politicized/contentious.

                  You can self-identify as you wish of course, but consider how potent the choice is of whether you choose to identify as a feminist or not:

                  From a salon article, "Why Are Women Scared to Call Themselves Feminists-:
                  "You can call yourself or not call yourself whatever you want, but consider this. Nobody enjoys it more when a woman says she's not a feminist than a misogynist. Nobody gets more gloatingly self-congratulatory about it, or happier about what "real- women don't need than someone who doesn't like women very much, especially not the uppity, outspoken, wanting pay equity and reproductive freedom types. Consider that any word that feared and derided has incredible power. And how beautiful and strong that makes it.-
                  http://www.salon.com/2012/12/03/why_...ves_feminists/

                  And there are a lot of dimensions to feminism/feminists. From an excerpt from Manifesta: Young Women, Feminism, and the Future by Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2000):

                  "In the most basic sense, feminism is exactly what the dictionary says it is: the movement for social, political, and economic equality of men and women. Public opinion polls confirm that when people are given this definition, 67 percent say they agree with feminism. We prefer to add to that seemingly uncontroversial statement the following: feminism means that women have the right to enough information to make informed choices about their lives. And because "women" is an all encompassing term that includes middle-class white women, rich black lesbians, and working-class straight Asian women, an organic intertwining with movements for racial and economic equality, as well as gay rights, is inherent to the feminist mandate. Some sort of allegiance between women and men is also an important component of equality. After all, equality is a balance between the male and female with the intention of liberating the individual.-

                  Comment


                  • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                    Originally posted by castilleja32 View Post
                    sc, I’m surprised you don’t identify as a feminist. From reading your other posts I gather you want to see women empowered and doing well, whether in media or life.

                    I admit I’m always somewhat shocked when a successful, outspoken woman says they’re not a feminist -- and I lose some respect for her, because they’re obviously enjoying the benefits of generations of hard work by feminists and then disassociating from them as well . But I also realize that some women need to distance themselves from the “angry, man-hating” stereotype or they want to avoid seeming politicized/contentious.

                    You can self-identify as you wish of course, but consider how potent the choice is of whether you choose to identify as a feminist or not:

                    From a salon article, “Why Are Women Scared to Call Themselves Feminists”:
                    “You can call yourself or not call yourself whatever you want, but consider this. Nobody enjoys it more when a woman says she’s not a feminist than a misogynist. Nobody gets more gloatingly self-congratulatory about it, or happier about what “real” women don’t need than someone who doesn’t like women very much, especially not the uppity, outspoken, wanting pay equity and reproductive freedom types. Consider that any word that feared and derided has incredible power. And how beautiful and strong that makes it.”
                    http://www.salon.com/2012/12/03/why_...ves_feminists/
                    First, I never said I'm not a woman who wants full equality and opportunity for all women (i.e. feminist). In fact, if you ask anyone who knows me they'd laugh at the mere suggestion I'm not. On this site, I've been highlighting sexism and bias against women for years. In spite of backlash I've received.

                    I don't feel the need to bear a label or announce "I support" feminism. For the same reason I don't feel the need to announce I'm a woman, or announce I'm a member of the Democratic Party, or announce whether or not I practice this or that religion. Or announce I'm "not afraid" of this or that. Engage me in conversation and I bet you can figure out where I stand on all of those topics, rather quickly.

                    With that said, I not only disagree with the above quote, I find it packed with illogical hyperbole. She makes the assumption that any woman who does not announce she's a feminist is fearful of being seen as "uppity," etc., or worse, pawns of those who hate women. This is just as judgmental of women as any garden-variety male misogynist telling a woman how she "should" think, what she "should" say.

                    Go click that "against feminism" link above. Look at what those women are saying. Where did they get this negative impression about feminism? That quote above is likely a big clue: they got that impression from those particular feminists (not all) who spout that kind of inaccurate if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us rhetoric, that's where.

                    Then click the links I provided of the "self-identifying" feminists who responded. Look at the way they riduculed women with POVs opposite to their own and characterized them as ignorant "sock puppets." Instead of looking at "why" these women hold those views, or communicating in a way that educates, they demean and insult them in fine misogynst tradition.


                    Originally posted by castilleja32 View Post
                    And there are a lot of dimensions to feminism/feminists. From an excerpt from Manifesta: Young Women, Feminism, and the Future by Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2000):

                    “In the most basic sense, feminism is exactly what the dictionary says it is: the movement for social, political, and economic equality of men and women. Public opinion polls confirm that when people are given this definition, 67 percent say they agree with feminism. We prefer to add to that seemingly uncontroversial statement the following: feminism means that women have the right to enough information to make informed choices about their lives. And because "women" is an all encompassing term that includes middle-class white women, rich black lesbians, and working-class straight Asian women, an organic intertwining with movements for racial and economic equality, as well as gay rights, is inherent to the feminist mandate. Some sort of allegiance between women and men is also an important component of equality. After all, equality is a balance between the male and female with the intention of liberating the individual.”
                    The multitide of "dimensions" is part of the problem, in my opinion. Which school of feminism shall I identify with? The one that chastizes other women for not toeing the line? Or, the one above, which I do agree with, that talks about "liberting the individual."

                    Can't I be allowed to say I support liberating the individual without branding myself a feminist? Is the tent not big enough for me? Am I not allowed to decide for myself what I call myself without losing the respect of other women (like yourself) or being accused of being fearful? What happened to giving women the freedom to voice their POV? Isn't that what feminisim is all about?

                    Maybe I'll coin a new word: fairness-ism.
                    Last edited by sc111; 08-06-2014, 10:21 PM.
                    Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                    Comment


                    • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                      So, to sum up, you are a feminist, but you don't like using the word "feminist" to describe yourself. Is that a fair assessment?
                      Last edited by emily blake; 08-06-2014, 10:40 PM.
                      Chicks Who Script podcast

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                      • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                        Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                        So, to sum up, you are a feminist, but you don't like using the word "feminist" to describe yourself?

                        Ok.

                        Is it cool if the rest of us keep calling ourselves feminists?

                        Oh, Jesus ...

                        Edited to add: I see I captured your original facetious tone and closing salvo above before you edited it.
                        Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                        Comment


                        • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                          Yes, that's what editing is for. When you realize you should reword something to make your meaning clearer or more acceptable. You have also edited many posts within this thread.

                          I would love to understand what you are trying to say, which is why I asked the question.
                          Last edited by emily blake; 08-06-2014, 11:17 PM. Reason: clarity
                          Chicks Who Script podcast

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                          • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                            Originally posted by emily blake View Post
                            Yes, that's what editing is for. When you realize you should reword something to make your meaning clearer or more acceptable. You have also edited many posts within this thread.

                            I would love to understand what you are trying to say, which is why I asked the question.
                            Ah -- another too-late editing job, I see. This above was your first knee jerk.

                            What I'm "trying" to say? Can you respond to me without being facetious or patronizing or talking to me like I'm a child who doesn't understand what editing means?

                            The line you deleted entirely from your previous post wasn't editing. It was simply dialing back the snark you intended. Barely.

                            Refer to my response to castilleja32. If you still don't "understand" what I'm "trying" to say then you may want to consider you're simply intolerant of any woman who doesn't think exactly like you do on this topic.

                            --------------

                            Edited to add:

                            Oh - wait. Then you re-edited back to what it was originally? Funny.
                            Advice from writer, Kelly Sue DeConnick. "Try this: if you can replace your female character with a sexy lamp and the story still basically works, maybe you need another draft.-

                            Comment


                            • Re: A truly useful theory re: "Where are the women?"

                              I don't understand what you're trying to say, or what you're saying, or what you did say, or whatever wording you would like me to use so that you will not be insulted.

                              You say you don't identify as feminist, but you are insulted if someone claims you are not actually a feminist. I don't understand this, so I asked if you could clarify. But that also is insulting to you, I think. I don't know. I'm sure what I've just said is also somehow insulting. So I'm sorry for insulting you once again.
                              Chicks Who Script podcast

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                              • Re: Women directors

                                Originally posted by wcmartell View Post
                                One of my favorite directors is Ida Lupino, and she just asked in the 1940s and they let her direct. Of course, she was a somewhat famous actress who was married to a big name writer at the time. But her films did well, and she transferred from working in front of the camera to behind the camera and had a huge career as a TV director when other actresses her age were retired. The main reason I'm doing THRILLER Thursday on my blog is to get to my favorite episode of the show, which she directed: GUILLOTINE.

                                So there *were* women directors.

                                Bill
                                I agree on Ida Lupino, and just noted that TCM is showing her film The Bigamist later in August (on the Summer Under the Stars day dedicated to Edmond O'Brien); great movie. She didn't direct it but The Hard Way I think is her best performance and a bold take on how a woman succeeded in show business.

                                Just wanted to add to the discussion about the absence of women directors in early/studio Hollywood: there aren't a lot of name women directors but many women were very influential as writer-producers. I think we project the auterist paradigm onto film directing, assuming that directors are usually the prime creators of a film, who leave the biggest imprint, when that's often not the case.

                                There were a lot of journeyman directors in Hollywood who weren't particularly gifted. Anita Loos wrote that a lot of directors of her time in Hollywood were very mediocre.

                                But as mentioned, women screenwriters in the early/silent era also functioned as producers, and in the studio era there were some very influential writer-producers who were women, such as Virginia Van Upp. And some women did a lot of uncredited work in collaboration with more well known directors: I've read accounts that say screenwriter Bess Meredyth served in a co-director role with her husband Michael Curtiz, and of course Alma Hitchcock worked closely with her husband in many roles on a production. And speaking of Hitchcock -- he mentored Joan Harrison who became a powerful producer in the studio era.

                                Some actresses also functioned effectively as producers in the studio era. Katharine Hepburn worked closely with writers on the scripts for her films and sometimes wrote drafts herself; and of course Mae West wrote or co-wrote most of her films.

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